over-rated, under-developed.

another typical over-under approach to making money.

you haven't seen it yet matthew, we're supposed to go tomorrow!

It was pretty intense as an action flick goes. I was not let down by the W's like many of you may say, and I left feeling like it was the end of a journey. It all makes sense now looking back at the other two films I'm not left with any real burning questions. It was not hard to understand, and had all of the elements of what I wanted to see in the film including those that made the first film fun. I liked it better than Reloaded which lacked a sense of cohesiveness. Theres really nothing else I'm going to say about it until you see it, but it was facinating to see a film after having it be discussed in such detail on here (well the other threads but they are now closed). No one got everything right. It is an enlightening experience to see ideas that we had talked about be played out, and to see the film finally fill all of the gaps that were impossible to show in words as well as new ones we had not thought about. Perhaps some of you will find that wasn't so. It is bittersweet to see the end of this trilogy, as I'm not really into comics ;-)

"It's beautiful..." - Trinity.

Is Jar Jar Binks in this movie?

I was entertained, but I got a vibe that The Matrix 4: The Easter Story could be coming down the pipe...

Overall it was good. Although I can just sense all the hate-comments... z

Definetly better then the first one, Glad I got to see it tuesday night on the big screen (wheee projectionist)

You mean that Frodo doesn't get kicked out of Hogwarts in the end?

Could someone go ahead and spoil it for me? I was so disappointed by the 2nd flick, I'm waiting for the DVD on the 3rd. BTW, here's Ebert's review.

Cookies need lovin'!

I enjoyed it. I was conscious, a few times, of sitting there thinking, "okay, this is not so bad... keep going, keep going, don't blow it..." In the end, I was not disappointed.

Was it perfect? No. Plot holes? Yep. I need to mentally process it for a while.

The intensity of the CGI Zion battle scenes was amazing.

Cinematically spectacular. Lots of eye candy.

I was really let down when I realied that Neo's actions at the end of the Matrix2 was because he was some sort of super-human/super-powered hero. I saw the end of Matrix2 and thought that the "real world with Zion in it" was another level of the matrix. Pure Beaudrillard with a Matrix within a Matrix within a Matrix... If I wake up from a dream, how do I know that I woke up and didn't just dream that I woke up from a dream?

I think the movies would have been better if they wouldn't have left reality behind. I've never been a big fan of the complete violation of physics in SF, and would have been more impressed if at the end of Matrix2 / beginning of Matrix3 Neo had realied that they were still in the matrix.

My $0.02

I was one of the contributors to the old thread about the last flick (not going to link to it here), and as such hope that you've got plans for keeping us jackals from devouring all of your bandwidth again.

Many spoilers here ... Don't bother reading if you haven't seen it, or want to see it with a completely open mind.

I don't really know what to think. On seeing Reloaded, I remember feeling a similar sense of dissatisfaction at the lack of cohesiveness mentioned above. After a few days, however, Reloaded sort of congealed in my head a bit, and I found it better than the sum of its parts. I liked it more for the questions it left than for its actual content. Very much a puzzle.

I think in the end I'll find the same sort of "peace" with Revolutions.
Unlike Reloaded, this one did a better job of intertwining action and dialogue, so there what few plodding "a-choice-is-a-choice-
because-you've-made-the-choice-to-choose-not-to-choose" moments did occur were easier to bear.

The climactic love scene, was one exception - there were cheers throughout the theater when it finally ended. Way too much. Way too overboard.

As to the action, it was pretty amazing to watch, but left something to be desired - essentially, I felt overloaded. How many more times can they blow up a sentinel? How many more times can Neo and Smith punch each other? Eventually, it just became repetitious ...

... which is a good segue to the central problem I had with the movie. To my knowledge, it didn't conclude any of the issues raised in the first movie. The "war," as defined in the first movie, was about freeing people from the Matrix. The second two redefined it as a real war, between attacking machines and desparate humans trying to defend themselves in the real world.

The conclusion of Revolutions did put an end to the real-world war, but left the machines with farms of enslaved people (although "free to leave if they wanted to," hadn't they been already? ("take the blue pill!")).

And for all the talk in the movie about how things had changed htis time, it seemed that overall, they hadn't. It was just the same - a revolution, a full circle. a dragon swallowing its tail. And yeah, it could just as easily have ended with another "Neo" waking up at his/her terminal.

So to those of you who have been futily pondering this all along with me, I ask you to prove me wrong. Alternately, explain why this was a satisfying ending to you? Did anything at all change (and who was that little girl?! Has anyone started doing the research on what her name meant in in Sanskrit or Indian or whatever)?

For me it was just hollow and empty. Pretty, but empty.

The love scene above aside, and the other embarassing outpourings of sincerity aside, what bothered me most were the stupid old-style willing-suspension-of-disbelief omissions (sort of like Trinity's needing to give Neo the "I-love-you" speech in the first movie, allowing Smith to trap him).

I thought the W's were better than this. How in the hell could those have been the best defenses Zion could have had had? Couldn't they have had at least *one* EMP in-house? Or a bunch of them in the tunnels? Couldn't they have covered up the front of those weird Mech-style fighters with a big piece of bullet-proof glass?

More later I'm sure.

I thought this one was the goldilocks Matrix. The first Matrix was a little light on philosophy, where the second one wanted to spell *every little thing* out. This one strikes a perfect balance with its imagery (Neo's blindness, the burst above the clouds, how he's carried at the end, et cetera) was beautifully done and very effective. It was just right.

To some extent it was the same philosophical lines: the Merovingian represents determinism, Neo, the Oracle, and their ilk are fighting for free will. The clairavoyant Oracle who seemed to represent determinism in earlier scenes declared she really didn't know what was going to happen. It all tied together nicely.

Overall I really enjoyed it, as much if not far more than the first one even.

Spoilers again:

Well, to save us all some time, here's one pretty good guess at her name (can't seem to create a link in Mozilla for some reason, so here's the URL: http://www.kamat.com/kalranga/hindu/sati.htm)

I'm not quite sure how the Oracle immolated herself on her husband - the architect's - funeral pyre (more below on Sati) , but based both on the Oracle's puddle-nap and the final conversation in the film, this was very clearly part of the answer.

Thanks to Dr. Jyotsna Kamat

Sati (Su-thi , a.k.a. suttee) is the traditional Hindu practice of a widow immolating herself on her husband's funeral pyre.

"Sati" means a virtuous woman. A woman who dies burning herself on her husbands funeral fire was considered most virtuous, and was believed to directly go to heaven, redeeming all the forefathers rotting in hell, by this "meritorious" act. The woman who committed Sati was worshipped as a Goddess, and temples were built in her memory.

Sati was prevalent among certain sects of the society in ancient India, who either took the vow or deemed it a great honor to die on the funeral pyres of their husbands. Ibn Batuta (1333 A.D.) has observed that Sati was considered praiseworthy by the Hindus, without however being obligatory.

The Agni Purana declares that the woman who commits sahagamana goes to heaven. However, Medhatiti pronounced that Sati was like suicide and was against the Shastras, the Hindu code of conduct. It is believed that they were not coerced, although several wives committed Sati. The majority of the widows did not undergo Sati.

Three words: The Phantom Menace.
No, wait - I think Phantom Menace actually had more kung fu.
Thanks for the interesting info on Sati, Dan. Good to know it's not Hindu for "funeral pyre of open-ended-franchise-milking-sequel".

I literally just got home from the theater. It was... ok. I think I need time to process it and form a proper opinion, but for now I'll just stick with the 'ok'.

Spoilers...

It seemed way too straight forward, as compared to the first 2. But! I enjoyed the intensity of the battle, and must admit I gave into my weakness as a woman and cried like a freakin baby when Trinity snuffed it. The only things I disliked? the white light from behind the sunglasses - mleh. just looked bad. Also, the face that spoke to Neo and negotiated with him and how it looked while Smith was flyin around in that building while fighting with Neo. It looked like a Roadrunner/Coyote cartoon.

Not that I could do any better ;)

Why do so many people seem to have wanted the real world (Zion) to just have been another level of Matrix? I think Neo's real world powers are perfectly understandable. He's partly inside the Matrix at all times, and so in the real world, he is able to affect machines. His power is not limited to, but it still stems from, his mastery of the matrix.

This is made totally clear when he is shown to be able to be in the Matrix without being plugged in.

The 'Real World' should have been another level of The Matrix because it doesn't explain otherwise how Smith was able to get inside Bane.

I'd add a lot more but I'm tired. I would like to ask why the machines didn't just destroy Zion with a bio-agent? All they would have to do is pinpoint someone who is about to be freed from The Matrix and then inject their 'real' body with a highly contagious, but delayed virus and then flush them. Once they got picked up and carted back to Zion the virus would activate and kill every living thing there... I mean, aside from that making for a really crappy ending. Still, that seems more like the thinking of a machine to me, than 250,000 sentinals. So much for your logical mind, Morpheus.

Here's my theory. I don't think the W's looked at this as "one big movie" as I've read in the past. They had a great story for the first one, but they had no fricken' idea of where to go with it. So they try to confuse everybody with the 2nd, and the 3rd says, "Fuck it...let's end it fun...Even we don't know where we're going..."

Yeah, I felt that the film felt like it was just trying to end itself. Instead of answering questions or posing new ones I think it was merely ment to end. Not that we weren't warned. The tag line was "Everything that has a beggining has an end."

[Spoiler] So... was it Neo who destroyed Smith, or did Neo die and the Machine providing the link into the Matrix finish the job after Neo was consumed? It sure looked like Neo was "infected" with the Smith virus right before he was torn apart. And in the real world, his body gave a jolt before being jacked with energy from the machine...

i apologize, but have to add. michael and supercrisis, i think you guys said what i was trying to get out, but couldnt. no one knew where this was going - they were just messing with us. so they had to end it. no new questions; no new debates.

its just upsetting that the second one made it seem as if the storyline had potential, but i guess i sort of saw this 2 hours of absolute cheese coming as soon as the line "he's doing his superman thing again" was spoken.

what if? that's what i got out of it, and that's all i'm left with.

The Smith-in-the-real-world scenerio is the one part that makes sense. The guy was plugged into the Matrix, so Smith was able to infect and take over his mind. Seems pretty straight-forward to me. The Neo-having-powers-in-the-real-world is the part that makes no sense. And how he can be in the Matrix without being plugged in.

And did anyone notice that, after Neo gets saved from the metro station and talks to the Oracle and stuff, he is then seen being "unplugged" by his friends on the ship? What? I thought he was in the Matrix without being plugged in, lying in a coma on that table. Is there some continuity error here? How did Neo get out of the Matrix from his coma, and when did this happen? Did he answer a phone and wake up on the table? I demand answers! And also, just after getting saved from the metro, he says he can't go back yet, he has to talk to the Oracle. So he hasn't been back yet. So he just magically winds up in that chair with the wire in his head, or something.

I never thought "Star Wars" had any deep philosophical meaning, even back when I was 10 and the movies were good. But they were still fun, like "Raiders of the Lost Ark" was too. Can we let these Matrix movies be fun too? Just fun? Please?

I liked it better than Reloaded, there were still problems, but I thought the ending was alright. Could have done with out the cheezy dialogue and the love story.

Reverentiously, I am very compelled to submerge in the michael's theory :P

(I mean :

M1- Wow, an enlightment, an outstanding-of-the-crew film. The W's dream film, maybe just the young age freaking ideal job.

But, it makes people want more, and gave us money so...

M2: ok, you all guys, We W's overwork your already fried brains with a lot of ideas and numerology, and philosophy, so, bring your money and devotion here to my cause ...

Fuk, We W's got to do another film yet, and dont want to being asked to do a 4th, so just a good ending it would be...

M3: Ok, we W's ve got enuff of all this Matrix crap. We W's end it in a sad way, just not to end it as a fairy tale. Oh yes, they both got to die, and We W's Reaffirm, to all you who hasnt adedd to aour Neo Church: Neo is Jesus. Neo in the cross. Neo choosing to give his life for all people's and defeating Satan*cough*Smith*cough* in the process. Neo goes to somewhere full of light. Neo in the sun (heaven).

DID YOU GOT IT, NOW!!!!!!!!!!!

of course , to you mistic We W's give the Yin Yang stuff Neo-the same-as-Smith.

You got fun in the first, we got money and fun, you got your brain fried in the second, we got even more money and fun, You got ...(we dont care really what you got)..., so...

This means you saw the three films = We W's are happy, SWIM in money and of course we had fun.

:S but that doesnt mean the trilogy would not be in my desk all the time ;)

PS: Hey, BTW, you W's, I have even some more money... Dont you have any new film soon? XP

PS2: So, I believe now in the little writers/directors/productors. REmember where the w's were AFTER M Trilogy?

PS3: I ever liked the first more.

Alex asked whether Neo destroyed Smith or the Machine. In the first movie Neo enters Smith and they become one, split apart and they both are different. Smith becomes a virus who destroyes other programs and copies itself. In the second one Smith tries to enter Neo but Neo fights him off. In this one Neo realizes that to destroy Smith he has to let Smith enter him. Smith is no longer a virus and is under control of the Machine again.

About the continuity problem Dwingba mentions above. The reason Neo went into a coma was because his mind made a connection with the Matrix while he was in the Real world. He wasn't jacked in when he stopped the sentinals. But because he made a connection without the hardware he went into Limbo, the place between the Matrix and the Real world. He was let out of Limbo but still couldn't leave the Matrix until he had a proper connection. I don't think he could go in and out of the Matrix at will. It was an accident that according to the Oracle should have killed him.
Of course it could just be a continuity problem. :)

matrix is poo...times three.

Any person who doesn't recognize The Matrix as the single most profound piece of fiction ever conceived simply doesn't understand it.

All the analysis in the world can't change how bad this movie was.

It was like watching the sequels to Highlander.

Awful.

Simply awful.

I really enjoyed Revolutions. Hell I enjoyed the whole trilogy. I think people are overanalyzing it. I catch myself doing that sometimes too. But try to step back and just enjoy it as an amazing sci-fi thriller.

I saw "the making of matrix" or something like that after that I understood that Warshawski brothers or twins was not capable of making a triology, they just seemed too stupid.

I will honor the effect people and some designers, this was the really talented people here.

profound eh?? I told you so didn't I!!!

Martin's quite right. At the Union Square 11:50 p.m. showing, the audience was cackling openly at the dialgue. It's execrable. It's one of the worst scripts ever actually made into a movie (and I speak as someone who saw Waterworld on opening day).

Wasn't the overarching goal and purpose of this trilogy to take us through the story/journey of saving Zion??? Wasn't that the goal from day one??? (Sure the long-term objective is to save humanity, but realistically the first step is to save Zion.) Wasn't that why Morpheus and everyone were running around in the first movie? To find The One who will save Zion?
- In the first movie they find The One who will save Zion.
- In the second they manuever the pieces and gain the knowledge to help save Zion.
- In the third all the pieces come together and Zion is saved.

So why is everyone so damn critical and upset when that complete story is actually told? I'm baffled. People hate philosophical speak. People hate the action. What does everyone want? A romantic comedy? Hell. The W Bros aren't stupid. They've created a story with more meaning and depth then we could imagine and they chose to only peel back so many layers of the onion intentionally. You have to use your brain to peel back the rest. It's genius really, because 10 years from now we'll all still be debating what it means.

When you step back, push aside all the theories and really take a wholistic view of this project, it is AMAZING. Every line of philosophical dialogue has meaning and purpose. Every action intention and consequence. Pieced all together we see a storyline so deep, complex and cohesive that I think we have experienced a rare, rare feat in stroytelling and cinema.

I thought all three installments were incredible and meant to criticized as one story. I don't think you can judge one movie over the other...it is all one story told over six hours. It is a story that explores man's search for meaning, love and survival. Some parts of life are filled with philosophical dialogue, some action and adventure. The sum of all that makes a life's story. Either you liked the story and bought into it or you didn't. I for one did.

Yeah, this movie sucked for lots of reasons. I can tolerate a reasonable amount of plot holes in any movie, but failing to explain how Neo could be in the matrix without being plugged in is a cardinal sin. The only way this could have made sense is if Zion were within the Matrix (and this would have been a cool angle to run at things). Instead, the Ws bottled it and went for the whole "mysticism" thing. Having seen the two sequels, I am now determined not to buy either of them on DVD. In all honesty, I'd rather just forget they existed.

Well ... I like it.
a lot of stuff for the eyes ... Everythink I could expect from a science fiction movies was is the third chapter.
But, I wonder why the objective of the first one (which was, if I remeber well, destroy the machines) has been change to be in peace with the machine ...

Good point Nix. I still like the first film best, but Reloaded is growing on me slowly but surely and this film will too, I'm sure.

I think the problem with Revolutions tho is that it didn't feel like The Matrix... there was almost no signature bullet-time, no hip soundtrack, no stylish moves. It felt like a completely different movie. Sure the bullet-time in the rain was cool, but it felt underused and unimportant. Sure there was a scene at a bizarre fetish club, but it didn't really yield much. Sure there's a big fight at the end, but I think the Burly Brawl in Reloaded was a lot more satisfying. And when did Smith learn to fly and not get his ass beat by Neo?

Ultimately this film was good, I think. I woke up this morning still thinking about the end. Which tells me that it wasn't all bad. It just didn't feel complete enough. Whereas Reloaded had too much action and not enough real story, Revolutions has too much real story and not enough action... from a Matrix point of view. Yes lots of stuff blew up, but it got very repetitive.

I think it's best to see the film and then draw your own conclusions. At the very least it's a spectacular piece of CG work.

Rabbit trail with spoilers:

So didn't Smith call the Oracle "mom" in the kitchen (M3)? If so, then try this on for size. The Oracle has been running the show here the whole time to try and pulled off the ultimate hack against the machines (and the Architect).

Follow along: The Oracle created (thus becoming "mom") and passed the "Smith Virus" (the virus needed to set Smith free and wreak havoc on the Matrix) to Neo in the first movie (M1) through the cookie she gives him at their first meeting. Neo is unaffective, because it is not written for him. Neo then unknowingly passes the virus to Smith at the end of M1 when he enters him. Smith in his own mind is "set free", but in reality is simply unknowingly serving the purposes of the Oracle. He is a virus that is programmed to replicate and gain power.

Smith then becomes a self-perpetuatiing virus that did not exist in the previous six cycles of the Matrix. He becomes the wild card. The one factor the machines didn't count on. The Oracle set it up this way because she saw the bigger picture and believed Neo really could break the cycle...he had more mojo than the previous "ones"...but she needed a barginning chip to take to the machines to bring peace (the Smith Virus).

Once here plan is put into motion the machines are faced with a two-fold problem. Either destroy the humans (and Neo) and risk having Smith overrun the Matrix thus loosing control of it. Or use Neo (who was being used all along by the Oracle to serve her purpose with cookies, candy, etc.) to stop Smith at the cost of breaking the Matrix cycle and bringing peace to the humans of Zion.

Ultimately, I believe the Oracle pulled off a coup. She released a virus into the system to basically hold it hostage (Smith) and then presented the cure (Neo) in order to secure her goal (peace).

This all comes together very well when you look at the last bit of dialogue between her and the Architect. It's almost like she's saying..."See, I can shake things up and change the way the system works. Let's see where it goes from here."

She started with freeing and protecting Zion...her next move might be on a much larger scale.

Spoon Boy says:

Any person who doesn't recognize The Matrix as the single most profound piece of fiction ever conceived simply doesn't understand it.

» by Spoon Boy on November 06, 2003 at 04:47:06 ET

Ah, Spoon Boy. I was hoping you wouldn't show up.

Anyone who makes a statement this banal and stupid simply hasn't read or watched any other fiction. Or they're in their early teens. Or they're trolling.

If it ended like every other action story, It would have predictable. And people would have complained over it. I thought the movie was great. Very entertaining, it was getting a little too sappy for a "matrix" film.

The dialogue was great, you didnt see the twist coming. The fight sequences were awesome, what is everybody's problem??

I'm still digesting things, but did anyone else have trouble with how long it took Neo to realize that Smith was inside Bane? I mean, Jesus! He was talking exactly like Smith and referring to Neo as Mr. Anderson...so why did it take Neo like, 16 days to catch on? And Neo, of all people, should understand that normal boundaries no longer applied, thereby allowing Smith inside a human.

I did also notice, as someone else mentioned, that when Neo returned from Limbo it looked like they un-jacked him.

I knew I should have gone and gotten popcorn when Smith and Neo faced off. Their fights are always pointless.

Like the face of God, weeping.

nix says:
Wasn't the overarching goal and purpose of this trilogy to take us through the story/journey of saving Zion??? Wasn't that the goal from day one???

I think you're somewhere between wrong and very wrong wrong here, but would have to watch the first movie again to really remember. I can say with some certainty that it was not "the overarching goal ... from day one." The goal in that movie was framed as freeing humanity from the Matrix. Simple as that. If you recall, in the first movie, Zion wasn't even under attack.

nix says:
(Sure the long-term objective is to save humanity, but realistically the first step is to save Zion.)

This is a decent way of re-stating it: as many people appear to be saying, Reloaded and Revolutions were really an entirely different story tacked on haphazardly at the end. Hamfistedly saving Zion concluded that story arc, but really left the first one untouched. Remember, the world is still exactly the same: all of those people are still trapped in there, and there is still just one remaining city of humans, which happens to also be an underground Burning Man festival.

The thing is, that may well have been the point: this was just another revolution in an endless loop. Like Col. Sanders explained in Reloaded, Neo was a yin, an irregularity whose existence required the presence of a yang, Smith. So far as I can see this movie seems simply to have removed them both.

nix says:
Wasn't that why Morpheus and everyone were running around in the first movie? To find The One who will save Zion?
- In the first movie they find The One who will save Zion.
- In the second they manuever the pieces and gain the knowledge to help save Zion.
- In the third all the pieces come together and Zion is saved.


Again, I'd have to see it again to be 100% sure, but I'm 99% sure that Zion wasn't in any danger in 1. The "war" meant something different in that movie.

nix says:
I'm baffled. People hate philosophical speak. People hate the action. What does everyone want?

Better execution, I think. The "philosophy" of the first movie was pretty much airtight, and the visuals, revolutionary. The focus in that movie was about the entire real world being a lie, which means that they have license to do amazing things in a seemingly real worlds. In revolutions and reloaded, because it was the real "real world," people's were less willing to suspend disbelief.

Also, the mystic dialogue in 1 was tolerable because the underlying story about the real world being false was so compelling. This go-round, there were too many plot holes (I mentioned some above), and the mystic melodrama was way too high. Personally I didn't hate the action: I was awed by it, but the bored by it, because it became repetitious. In a way, that's not bad. Nothing was left out, it just conveyed how hopeless the battles were - but it was still boring, either way.

nix says:
It's genius really, because 10 years from now we'll all still be debating what it means.

That doesn't necessarily make it genius. That can just as easily make it incomprensible and incohorent story logic that was foisted on an audience that decided to be relatively forgiving thanks to the unfulfilled promise of the first movie.

I think the posts relating to Sati are skipping the obvious there. To me it look as if Neo is the "virtuous woman."

When he sees the machines after he is blinded he sees them as flames. Nowhere is this more evident than his first true vision of Smith inside Bane. When he dies he dies by being consumed by Smith. Consumed by the flames, not of Trinity's funeral pyre but at least what led to her death.

When the machines carry of his body at the end I got a feeling they were raclaiming his body - they would use what they could and dispose of the rest.

We later see Sati actively rewriting the matrix with the beautiful sunrise - "I did it for Neo" - showing us that she is now the one, she will be worshipped as a goddess because in the matrix she is a goddess, she is 011 to Neo's 101 and a reasonable followup. (Yes in 2 we saw all images of Neo on the architects screens behind Neo's head - that was a visual clue for us that there were multiple 'the one's' before and not evidence that all of them were Keanu Reeves.)

And I missed the first few minutes of the movie and everything, basically, up until just before Neo offers to carry Sati's father's bag. So maybe I missed something important to her story.

"Sati" means a virtuous woman. A woman who dies burning herself on her husbands funeral fire was considered most virtuous, and was believed to directly go to heaven, redeeming all the forefathers rotting in hell, by this "meritorious" act. The woman who committed Sati was worshipped as a Goddess, and temples were built in her memory.
>>>

Okay, first of all: it's ridiculous to say that this trilogy was not supposed to happen, that this movie was just "thrown together to end it," or that they don't all work together.

This trilogy was absolutely meant to be one film, broken up for distribution. In fact, even if you separate the first film, the last two could be watched back-to-back, without editing, and they would work perfectly as one film. Put all three together, add a title card that says "6 Months Later" between parts I and II, and you have a 6 hour movie.

You'll note that said 6 hour movie follows the exact same story arc as any successful film (or show or book or play):

1. Exposition (the first film, in which we are introduced to characters and told the problem)
2. Building Action (the last few minutes of the first film and the second film in its entirety, in which we see the two sides opposing each other to succeed and tension increases)
3. Climax (a majority of the third film, in which we see the problem addressed and resolved for the most part)
4. Denouement (the last few minutes of the third film, in which we see falling action and the aftermath)

supercrisis asked why the machines didn't destroy Zion with a 'bio-agent,' killing them all quickly by 'injecting' them with a toxin just before they were freed or something of the like. The reason is simple: the machines did not want to kill humans attached to the Matrix. They didn't want to instantly eradicate Zion either. They wanted to do what they were meant to do, which was to play out the same act they'd played out 5 times before. There was a pattern and a purpose to how the Matrix worked. Zion was to be destroyed the same way it always had been, Neo was to disseminate and choose new people to take out of the Matrix to restart Zion, and everything would repeat. Remember--the purpose was not to kill humans, but to keep them alive and under control, hence utilizing them for power.

Other than the one hole people are complaining about (Neo being plugged in at some point off camera, which I think could be explained by just that--they move him to the chair and plug him in so as to cleanly unplug him later), this was an intensely solid film. The visuals were absolutely astounding and the scope was unbelievable.

I can't believe so many people complain about the 'love story' aspect of this trilogy. What people don't seem to understand is, that's what this trilogy is about. The love story. Without that love, Neo would not have been the one. Remember that you have to think reversely about the films. Neo does not actually become the one until he is the one. And that does not happen until Trinity falls in love with him.

Neo ends the war, Neo destroys Smith, Neo does everything he does because of that love. If Trinity hadn't died, I do not believe Neo would have given his life. She had to die for him to succeed.

There are moments in this movie that are truly remarkable. Yes, there are lines that seem cheesy, and there is dialogue that is delivered poorly. But moments like flying above the clouds and Neo 'seeing' Smith/Bane in the dark are absolutely fantastic. The vision in this film is, I believe, even stronger than in the first film, and I honestly think this film makes the series complete.

I'm sad to see it end, and I feel bad for those of you who didn't love it as much as I did.

spygeek says:
I'm still digesting things, but did anyone else have trouble with how long it took Neo to realize that Smith was inside Bane? I mean, Jesus! He was talking exactly like Smith and referring to Neo as Mr. Anderson...

Agreed, completely. That was ridiculous. I think that that was part of why they kept Neo in his isolated meditation for so long - to keep them separate so that Neo would appear slightly less dense. But during their scenes together, it was really just dumb.

spygeek says:
I knew I should have gone and gotten popcorn when Smith and Neo faced off. Their fights are always pointless.

Sorry to repeat a point I've made before, but I think to some extent that was intended by the W's. I'm willing to grant that they were trying to demonstrate that these were two incredibly powerful fighters who were so close to equal that they really could have fought forever and still had a draw.

Whereas the Zion scenes demonstrated that in spite of the incredible action that no matter how long they fought, the machines would win because of their greater number and power.

I liked being bored, to some extent, because most fight scenes always seem to have happy endings - think of Rocky IV, when Rocky should by all rights have been dead, having taken about 150 punches, but because he puts together ten in a row he wins? What?!

Letting the fights drag on until it became clear that their outcomes were inevitable was almost innovative.

"the mystic melodrama was way too high"

People would have had more fun if they had a sense of humour about themselves. I know I felt, and one of the people I was with agreed on this, the only actor we felt any real affinity for was Ian Bliss, Bane, because he really seemed, as an actor, to be having fun doing his whole Hugo Weaving/Smith impression.

Damn you comma splice.

And I assume the guy who was being led away from the table when Neo arrived at the Mergovinian's in 2 was the Train Man or whatever he was called, is that the case?

The Neo/Smith fights are supposed to be pointless--he's fighting himself.

"The Neo/Smith fights are supposed to be pointless--he's fighting himself."

Sure, but you can do fighting yourself really well, a la fight club, and you can do it in a tedious manner, as with here.

Yes, the fight was important. Yes, Neo needed to learn that fighting bane was useless (http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Philosophy/tar/Archives/002295.html) and yes, we as the audience, needed to learn the same thing, but no damn if that fight wasn't my least favorite moment other than Trinity's moment of death. Could they have sapped even a drop more of emotion out of that? Could they have made it any more like 2 planks of wood debating fiscal policy? They'd sooned get blood from a stone.

You're telling me you thought Fight Club had better fighting in it than the Matrix (even just Revolutions)? Well, then I don't know that I respect your opinions.

I'm sorry, but the scope of that last fight was great. And that slow-mo punch was better than bullet-time for me.

I should clarify--not "better" than bullet-time, the first time I saw it, but it was a really solid effect that impacted me at least as much as bullet-time did the first time I saw it.

Brian L says:
I think the posts relating to Sati are skipping the obvious there. To me it look as if Neo is the "virtuous woman."

Given the triology's precedents for giving names with some meaning, it'd be more than a little bit odd for the meaning of the word "Sati" to apply to a character other than the character with that name Sati. Sati is Sati, Neo isn't. What Sati the character is, however, is something I really don't understand.

Brian L says:
When he sees the machines after he is blinded he sees them as flames. Nowhere is this more evident than his first true vision of Smith inside Bane. When he dies he dies by being consumed by Smith. Consumed by the flames, not of Trinity's funeral pyre but at least what led to her death.
Strongly disagree with you here. When Neo was carried off, as you put it, he was set on what amounted to a funeral pyre in an allusion, I believe, to Viking mythology.

Excerpt from here:
"Some Viking graves were marked by a series of stones lined up in the shape of a boat over the grave. Some of the more wealthy and prestigious burials also included a funeral pyre set on top of a ship. The pyre would be lit and the blazing ship set off to sea -- a sight that must have been a dramatic and spectacular site to behold."
Brian L says:
We later see Sati actively rewriting the matrix with the beautiful sunrise - "I did it for Neo" - showing us that she is now the one, she will be worshipped as a goddess because in the matrix she is a goddess, she is 011 to Neo's 101 and a reasonable followup.


But does that mean that the sequence is simply repeating? That nothing has changed? If Sati were able to change the sunrise, that would seem to indicate that she's vastly more powerful than Neo was. She is "the one," maybe, but is pure machine, without any human host. In the context of the trilogy that's a complete reversal with a meaning I don't yet understand.

Brian L says:
And I missed the first few minutes of the movie and everything, basically, up until just before Neo offers to carry Sati's father's bag. So maybe I missed something important to her story.

You probably did, although I don't know exactly what.

A part of it leads to my big question, if anyone has a guess: what did Sati's parents had to do with it? Was the love story between two programs the yin to Neo and Trinity's yang. (I've already overused that yin-yang construct in one day of posts)

Furthermore, Sati's mother was an interactive software designer, if I recall correctly. What did her father do again? Surely at least the mother's job has some significance.

I'm really interested in the Sati stuff.

The Oracle created (thus becoming "mom") and passed the "Smith Virus" (the virus needed to set Smith free and wreak havoc on the Matrix) to Neo in the first movie (M1) through the cookie she gives him at their first meeting.

This is interesting and you're essentially correct, but I'm not so sure the cookie part is necessary (although when you consider the Merv's orgasm cake from #2, it makes sense).

The Oracle and the Architech are the real protagonists in this trilogy, even though the narrative focuses on Neo, Smith, and the Zionists. The Oracle wants to end the war, the Architect wants to keep the Matrix running. It's basically an arms race between the two of them: the Oracle helps the Neos (all 6 of them) escape from/understand the Matrix, while the Architect uses the Neos to improve it. Both the Matrix and the Neos "created" by it get better/stronger/smarter. The Oracle knows that the Matrix is a complex system and as such is ripe for wildly unpredictable emergent behavior. Her hope is that Neo becomes strong enough to destabilize the Matrix somehow (she doesn't know) and somehow (again, she doesn't know) effect the course of the war. The hope of the Architect is that the Neo/new Matrix cycle will remain stable indefinitely (or that, through the gradual testing and improvement of the Matrix software, the Neo anomaly can be eliminated permanently).

The Oracle's wish is granted when Neo #6 turns out to be so strong that the Matrix mutates, producing the viral Agent Smith. Neo vs Smith escalates to such a degree that the machines cannot control Smith, either in the Matrix or the real world. Their little complex system has backfired on them and will eventually destroy them if they don't act. They have no choice but to bargain with Neo and help him & the Oracle destroy Smith in exchange for ending the war.

Nice comments, Nix. I share your sentiment and your theory about the Oracle is pretty convincing.

On Neo and Smith's fights, I think the confrontations are supposed to be futile. The realization that Neo and Smith simply aren't going to be able to kill each other with punches and kicks comes pretty quickly for most, but why make that a reason to tune out?

The moment the character's realize this should be obvious. Smith standing over Neo recalling his deja vu, Neo standing and acknowledging the inevitability of what needs to happen next.

But fine, go get popcorn. I watched the final fight scene in awe. It was finest superhero fight I've ever seen. None of this,"No! Rocky, get up!" crap. Just two invulnerable beings slugging it out 'til they understand the reason they're there. Aside: did the shockwave sphere around them remind anyone else of Akira?

Two other quick points...
I read that the Wachowski brothers were trying to create a live-action anime. They were spot on.

Extending the story to other mediums, i.e. Enter the Matrix, The Animatrix, was brilliant (not in the slimeball marketing sense.)

You're telling me you thought Fight Club had better fighting in it than the Matrix (even just Revolutions)? Well, then I don't know that I respect your opinions.

I didn't mean the fighting in Fight Club was more visually stunning but rather they handled the idea of fighting yourself in a more interesting way conceptually.

I loved the rain scenes here for their catering to my visual appetite but the fight itself, the effect of it all, was less than wealthy.

I read an article a little before seeing the movie - apparently they spent weeks perfecting thise rain droplets and while they were filming those scenes Keanu Reeves and Hugo Weaving could neither hear nor see what each other were saying.

Smith standing over Neo recalling his deja vu, Neo standing and acknowledging the inevitability of what needs to happen next.

This was also kind of amusing in retrospect, Smith suffering from Deja Vu, considerig the role Deja Vu plays in the other movies.

Brian L says:

People would have had more fun if they had a sense of humour about themselves. I know I felt, and one of the people I was with agreed on this, the only actor we felt any real affinity for was Ian Bliss, Bane, because he really seemed, as an actor, to be having fun doing his whole Hugo Weaving/Smith impression.

Agreed. Matrix 1 left a lot more room for that sort of thing ("I know Kung Fu," etc.) The rest of the series was pretty humorless.

Brian L says:
And I assume the guy who was being led away from the table when Neo arrived at the Mergovinian's in 2 was the Train Man or whatever he was called, is that the case?

No, the person being led from the table was Sati's father.

jkottke says:
They have no choice but to bargain with Neo and help him & the Oracle destroy Smith in exchange for ending the war.

I keep harping on this, I know, but it's very hard for me to acknowledge that "the war" ended. You mentioned that Neo's presence created the Smith anomaly, but what is different about the outcome of the film? How have things changed from the world that was before Matrix 1?

I'm not speaking rhetorically: is it simply that Zion is no longer under attack?

No, the person being led from the table was Sati's father.

Ahh! and Doh! Yeah. He did talk about making a deal with the frenchman didn't he. I was a little busy trying to find the people with my tickets in the dark as that was going on and almost forgot it.

In the last Great Kottke Matrix Debate I was somewhat adamant as the Mergovias as Hades/the Devil. I liked the ambiguity. I liked Neo being trapped in The Mergovian's castle after he consumed there (Persephone's kiss equaling Persephone eating from the pomegranate) and I hatet how obvoius they made that this time around, the triplet guards at the front door as cerebus and then the pressing the help button when they got in the elevator where the top of the P was scratched off. That was actually a really lame and unnecessary visual.

Was the Mergovian's dance club the same place or a variation of where Neo fights on the old programs in the Mergovian's castle in Reloaded? The steps seemed to be the stairways on the sides and some of the statuary in the back looked like it might have been the same or slightly modified.

In need of some enlightenment here. Some quick questions:

- Where does the train come from each trip (train = network pipe)?
- It is delivering programs and/or people from some place correct?
- If it is delivering programs, then who is developing these programs and where?
- Are they developing better and stronger programs (e.g. Sati, if she is a program. Did Sati's parents say they were programs or programmers?) in preparation for the post Neo #6 Matrix where they might be able to overtake the machines by taking control of the Matrix itself.
- Is this really a struggle with three major groups working to maintain power, survival and freedom - humans (both in real world zion and in suspension), software (AI - machine independent, operating in the Matrix) and machines (who exist in the real world and run the Martix) - where use each other in various ways to accomplish their own goals?

Morpheus and Neo leading the human cause. The Oracle leading the software/AI cause (she called herself a program in M2 right?) and The Architect leading the machine cause. The humans now fight for freedom from the Matrix (their genetic desire). The rogue software/AI now fight for control the Matrix (their home). The machines continue to fight to survive by maintaining balance in the Matrix (the control mechanism of their food). Everyone is selfish, but the sofware/AI, through their superior intelligence, know it has greater chance of survival by aligning with humans through The One and exploiting that "hole" in the Matrix. They are going for the Win-Win with the humans, instead of the Win-Lose deal the machines currently have with the humans.

- Have they been exploring each others strengths and weaknesses with each cycle and now the software (through The Oracle and new programs introduced into the Matrix) is staging itself to overtake the Matrix and "upgrade" the machine's software with a more intelligent view of the world and role of humans in it?

Nothing has changed and everything has changed.

The Architect tells the Oracle that those who wish to be freed will be. This is the same as before when you think about it, because the problem was choice. But the choice didn't have to be real. Remember how the Merovingian told them that choice was an illusion created by the powerful. The machines were the powerful and created the illusion of choice within the Matrix.

In the end they are all still inside the Matrix, with a perceived choice. But the conflict behind the choice no longer exists, there is peace, so the Matrix is ultimately stabilized and can go on forever without the need for the One.

nix says:
In need of some enlightenment here. Some quick questions:


Good questions. I wish I could really answer some (or maybe more) of them, but mostly I think I can only add.

nix says:
- Where does the train come from each trip (train = network pipe)?
- It is delivering programs and/or people from some place correct?
- If it is delivering programs, then who is developing these programs and where?


I think this was one of the other big holes. That there is another "place," which is essentially some sort of development box somewhere.

As they explained in reloaded, the programs essentially mimic evolution. Some are re-written, some are deleted. The addition of this third element unfortunately (for me, at least), mae the Matrix seem like less of a "real world." Given that the movie's strength came from the "real world isn't real" concept, this was a bad idea... the less real the Matrix seems, the less worthwhile the story becomes.

As Brian pointed out, how realistic could it have been, towards the end: there was an elevator to hell, for God's sakes.

nix says:
- Are they developing better and stronger programs (e.g. Sati, if she is a program. Did Sati's parents say they were programs or programmers?)


*Both*, actually. At least the mother.

nix says:
- Is this really a struggle with three major groups working to maintain power, survival and freedom - humans (both in real world zion and in suspension), software (AI - machine independent, operating in the Matrix) and machines (who exist in the real world and run the Martix

I think that's the idea, yes. But the directors kept flip-flopping. Sometimes the software was independent, sometimes not. That seemed really silly to me.

Do any of you realize that Neo was just a tool, and the movie wasn't about him? Instead it was all about the Oracle. The Oracle knew what she had to do for peace. She brought back her son (Smith) after Neo killed him in M1 in order to deliver peace between man and machine. She used Neo to get what she wanted After all, all that a program wants is more power, more control.

supercrisis says:
In the end they are all still inside the Matrix, with a perceived choice. But the conflict behind the choice no longer exists, there is peace, so the Matrix is ultimately stabilized and can go on forever without the need for the One.

Um, in English, maybe?

The "choice" thing seems like real bullshit to me. Are they trying to say that every person going about their business in the Matrix is aware of the fact that they are not living in reality and can choose to leave at any time? That's just absolute crap.

Also, I neglected to mention above how annoying the W's desparate grasps at existentialism were, when trying to avoid the holes in their plot.

"Love is a word." So what? Explain to me how two programs in a non-human, purely-machine world can fall in love any more than two rocks can. Don't just start throwing around Sartre references to weasel out of an explanation.

I have to say I found the ending very Arthurian. Neo battling Smith/Bane as Arthur battled Mordred and being wounded. Then dying and being carried off on the barge to Avalon, only to return one day when he is needed most.

And I didn't see the light of the machines as being fire, so much as being the light of God, so to speak. The grace and love of God that was able to overpower Smith's evil/hatred. It all seemed so base.

Okay, let me try and lay this out the way that I see it.

In Reloaded the Architect tells Neo that the problem with the Matrix was choice. The people wouldn't accept the program, no matter how perfect because they were not given a choice. They rejected it and "entire crops were lost" as Smith put it. So the Matrix was redesigned as the world we see today, because it was thought by the machines that the problem was the perfection. When they learned that it was actually the choice that was causing the rejection the Oracle deduced that if the choice were kept at a mostly unconcious level the program would be mor readily accepted. This is why so many people inside the Matrix feel as if they are in a dream, they can sense that something is not right, but they are not aware enough to fully detect it.

The choice that was engineered was Zion. Those that became aware of the Matrix could ultimately exit it and ascend to a higher level, that being the real world. This is where the confusion stems from. In one fashion it would seem that these people are freed from the Matrix and unleashed into the real world. But this doesn't make sense from a machine's point of view. Why would they introduce an unstable element into this system by truly allowing people to leave? Instead it would make more sense for a higher layer of the Matrix to be created which emulates a real world. In this world people have made the choice to go there and so the program is readily accepted, even if it is not real.

This is why choice is only a manner of control exercised by the powerful, as the Merovingian told them. The Architect said as much to Neo, but in a much more convoluted way. The machines are merely trying to exist. Why would they allow human beings into the real world only to have to use up tons of resources and energy just to destroy Zion ever cycle. It would be far easier, and cleaner if things went wrong, to run the 'real world' as a higher level simulation where humans believe they are free.

The Oracle was a citizen of the Matrix, as were many programs, and did not wish to see her home destroyed every cycle. So instead of having the Matrix reload every time she helped to guide events so that peace between the machines and the humans could be forged and the choice to leave the Matrix and go into the 'real world' could be made without conflict or war. Now that the war is over and people are allowed to travel between the two worlds the system can run forever without having to reload or recycle.

I know there is probably a lot more going on, and I've only described my thoughts in broad strokes here. But I think this helps make the end a bit more satisfying and sensible. At least to me.

i think the sati story is very important...when neo saw that programs could also feel love he realised that he does not only fight for the survival of zion but also for the survival of the matrix which harbours such programs. The end is actually more happy than a lot would think...becuase the matrix has changed. Sati has a purpose...he creates light into the matrix...no more green blur anymore in matrix ..a whole different color pallete..which indicates that the matrix is a better place..also the people still in the matrix are happy...becuase they dont know they are in the matrix, which doesnt matter..as cypher says...the beef just taste good...even if it is fake. also the matrix is a much better place to live in thasn the scorched earth without sunlight...just accept it humans f*cked the earth up beyond repair...and the matrix is just another step in evolution neccesary for survivasl of human race....

"""- Are they developing better and stronger programs (e.g. Sati, if she is a program. Did Sati's parents say they were programs or programmers?) """""

Try not to think about it so literally! They are both programs and programmers.

The same way that Neo is a hacker in the matrix but Neo is essentially a a human hacking program also - get my drift? His existence is hacking away at the fabric of the matrix. He's hacking all the way back to the source - just by thinking and choosing.

Try not to define everything as A B or C - look at it from a new perspetive where the action and images are reflections meanings, this can be appiled on many levels.

I really should be doing better things with my day.

supercrisis says:
This is why choice is only a manner of control exercised by the powerful, as the Merovingian told them. The Architect said as much to Neo, but in a much more convoluted way. The machines are merely trying to exist. Why would they allow human beings into the real world only to have to use up tons of resources and energy just to destroy Zion ever cycle. It would be far easier, and cleaner if things went wrong, to run the 'real world' as a higher level simulation where humans believe they are free.

I respect the amount of thought you put into this but it rests fully on a few assumptions that I question:

1. "So many people inside the Matrix feel as if they are in a dream."

The number who feel this way are clearly a significant minority.

2. The machines would be able to engineer a "second choice" that is not the real world. The way I see it, the people who left the Matrix were able to perceive that they were under control. I don't buy the idea that the machines could simply create an "onionskin" Matrix on top of the other one(s).

3. Zion is a construct (in or out of the real world) and is perpetually torn down and rebuilt as part of the cycle. I don't see any other evidence for this beyond the indiscriminate application of bits and pieces of various speeches (meaning you could apply them at random to anything in the films and come up with varying conclusions).

4. "People are allowed to travel between the two worlds the system can run forever without having to reload or recycle."

What does that mean? People are constantly consciously aware of the fact that reality isn't real? This just doesn't make sense to me.

But fine, go get popcorn. I watched the final fight scene in awe. It was finest superhero fight I've ever seen. None of this,"No! Rocky, get up!" crap. Just two invulnerable beings slugging it out 'til they understand the reason they're there.

The reason I said I should have gone for popcorn was because this fight, just like the stupid "bully brawl" from M2, was painfully overdone. Every single punch does not need to have a momentary slow-mo followed by a sped-up imact. There didn't need to be so many shock-wave effects. Yes, they had to have a showdown, but I think it would have been better if it were more stripped-down, to contrast with everything that led up to that point.

I liked the fight scenes in M1, but that does not mean that I like them 100 times better when they are made 100 times more complex and 100 times longer, as in 2 and 3.

i think that the programs come to the matrix for some degree of freedom from somewhere else. They are the slaves of the machines as well. The Matrix doesn't need to be the only node on the network. Maybe it is just the only node with real humans--Me personally i'd design a power system with multiple, and completely seperate matrixes.

the layer of darkness in the sky is basically an EMP layer, right? So the thinking machines are trapped on earth. The only way to get beyond it could be with the help of humans.

they should have showed the big face machine hitting a restart button on some old Pentium II, would have saved the movie from the terrible dialog somehow. I think that the Matrix franchise became the train station of the W's. They are god there. If you are working on their movies, you going to tell them their dialog sucks? That some of the ideas are drowning? No. You are going to keep working on what they say. Note to the W's, i'm available for consulting, i'll respectully disagree with you while you work on your movies for a very reasonable price.

The final piece of score for the film (before credits) was entitled "Spirit of the Universe." Maybe this sheds some light on things.

In what was purported to be an early draft of the Matrix Reloaded they addressed the concept of the machines using Quantum Computing to run the Matrix. If this has any influence on Revolutions perhaps the computer process became so complex and so ingrained in the very stuff of the universe that Neo was able to emulate that behaviour thru his own consciousness. This is a real long shot, I admit. But maybe that's how he can stay partially linked into the Machine world without cables.

But note that Neo can't connect completely. Even when he goes to the machine city he still is supplied with cables to 'jack in' with. He can only make it half-way, which is why he is in the Train Statation which leads to the Matrix.

Just saw the movie so i have just a few thoughts together. I believe the brothers W were always aware, more than their over expectant audience, that these were only movies. The action squences were only to keep the audiences coming, the sweeteners, to let the audince have fun while the brothers laid out/worked out their philosophy for themselves alone.
The core of the movies is the philosophy which, for all the miles of type in online forums about it, is like all great philosphy, deceptively simple.

It comes down to this: In the the rain filled pit, when Smith is pulverising Neo he tells him that all things are constructs, are illusions, only death is real (smiths purpose, as he says) - life, control, love, everything is a figment of our own minds. So, he then rants at Neo, why does Neo fight still? And Neo answers 'Because i choose to'.

Thats it.

The entire trilogy barrels down its hyperactive path, to this. Forget the battle between the machines and zion, who the oracle is, who the merovingian is, how they got there, Neos showdown with smith, what happened after Neo died, reality, artificial reality, artificial intelligence, the oracles powers, neos powers, why the matrix was built, choice in the matrix and outside it - all is besides the point, a mere game, a mere MOVIE, to whistle a message by, if some in the audience would but listen.

Every modern philosophy that tells us life is essentially unknowable and meaningless is answered with another, much older, philosophy (i wont spoil it by saying which) that says yes it is meaningless, incalculable, essentially unknowable, but yet every human being has the power, if only they knew, to make a choice about it, and that is what gives it meaning, and changes it completely. Life depends on us to give it meaning, not the other way around.

And thats the way that (much loved) cookie crumbles...

The brothers dont care what we make of the movie, and they wont answer the desperate plot questions in these posts. Theyve made their point and had fun doing it. We only paid them for the priviledge.

These cookies are making me thirsty!

I know at least one of you were wondering what the significance with Mobil Ave was.

Hows this:
Mobil = Limbo

I don't know if you guys read the first thread that started around the time of M2, but Bell had a THE spoiler that gave the whole plotline. I reread it just to be sure and it was right on. You may find it at the beginning of the old thread

Question to ask yourself:

Did the previous Neos choose Door 1 or Door 2?

Dan says:

Ah, Spoon Boy. I was hoping you wouldn't show up.

Hope. The quintessential human delusion. :)

Jkottke said: The Oracle's wish is granted when Neo #6 turns out to be so strong that the Matrix mutates, producing the viral Agent Smith.

This isn't correct.

At the end of the movie, Smith remembers having done it all before - in exactly the same way as it is happening all around him at present - which is possibly the only decent bit of scriptwriting in the movie.

So, this wasn't the first time that Neo had created the viral Smith - it's an endlessly repeating cycle.

It has happened before.

It will happen.

And it will happen again and again and again - with only minor changes in every new iteration.

It's a simple computer-based operation; executing the same set of instructions a given number of times, or until a specified result is obtained.

The solution is entirely obtained by iteration - just like movie sequels.

Revolutions and its prequel, Reloaded were a money-spinning cyclical con-job.

And let's face it - we all fell for it, big-style.

Sorry if this comment is a bit 'late'.

I couldn't but help noticing what people had to say about the Oracle being the "mother". An indian myself, I couldn't help but post the following observation, however inane:

In Sanskrit, MAATRIH, MAATAH, MAATUR, MAATRIKAH refer to a "source", or "matrix" (I am not kidding about the latter; check a S-E dictionary!). This is largely believed to be the root of the words "Modor" (old english), "Meter", "Maman", etc by linguists. (And this is not, by any means, a personal bias). Heck, in Albanian, MATRICE stands for "womb"!

An interesting etymology, wouldn't you say? ;)

Cheers everyone!

dan says:

/- The "choice" thing seems like real bullshit to me. Are they trying to say that every person going about their business in the Matrix is aware of the fact that they are not living in reality and can choose to leave at any time? That's just absolute crap. -/

Not that they're aware of their condition, but instead, that they always have a choice, and once aware of that choice, must still understand it (the distinction between awareness and comprehension of choice is made in each of the films), and then, must make a choice.

I'm not sure who "the others" (when the Oracle says at the end, "what about the others?") really are. Every human who's still trapped in their energy-harvesting pods in the real world? That wouldn't make sense for the machines, who depend on the energy. Every human who's eventually presented with the choice inside the Matrix? No, for the same reason (it'll take longer, but with the same effect, obviously).

Who do you think "the others" are?

The Sati discussion is good, but for the most part, it seems that the non-Christian concepts aren't well understood and are simply ignored as bad ideas or plot flaws because the context for them isn't as accessible to the story's predominantly Christian audience (at least as it seems to be discussed here, and probably in America generally).

I'd be interested to hear the opinions of those who are well-educated in other traditions.

You know, I saw this film yesterday, and I was disappointed.

And now...I want to see it again.


*That* is the true mystery of The Matrix.

Anxiety :)

BTW, does anyone know anything about alternative endings, the 'Neo and Trinity as the New Architects' scene, the Thomas Anderson grave scene etc? So many rumours and spoilers floating about, still trying to determine the truth.

Ah well, here's to you, Trin. You saw the sky.

Not everyone believes life is meaningless. I personally don't accept that program.

At the end of the movie, Smith remembers having done it all before - in exactly the same way as it is happening all around him at present - which is possibly the only decent bit of scriptwriting in the movie.

Smith doesn't remember that, as I interpreted it anyway, he foresaw it when he took the Oracle's eyes. Rememeber when the Mergovian says what he wants (the Oracle's eyes) "can't be given, it has to be taken"

The version of Smith Neo is fighting is, I believe, the body of the Oracle inhabited by Smith. Don't they show her lying in the muddy water after Neo destroys Smith?

Yes yes yes, goshdammit yes: Sameer. Yes.

I applaud you - when Neo struggles up from the crater out of the mud (and honestly, I feel even the fact that it was *out of the mud* was visually signifigant, instead of just off wet pavement) and faces the question of the Great Big Empty which has caused modern philosophers to tie themselves in knots and whine about, and spawned nihilism and a host of other things... when he does that, and the only thing he HAS to say to justify all this is a very simple line: "Because I choose to."

A few years ago, true story, a college philosophy course ended with the professor handing out sheets on which the students had to write an impromtu justification for living life in the universe as we know it to date, and they all began furiously scribbling out every philosophy you can think of, trying to cram as much into the single sheet as possible, within a time limit. One student finished in a few moments, walked to the head of the class, turned his sheet in, and left. He wrote two words to the question at the top of the sheet, which was "Why?"

"Why not?"

Hinduism speaks of 4 'yugas', or ages in the timeline of man, with each one following the other in procession. As this time frame flows, there is an ascendancy in unrighteousness. Here's how it looks like:

Swarna (Golden age) -> Treta -> Dwapara -> Kali (Dark age)

We are, at present, in the Age of Kali, the dark age. Each yuga is approximately about 9,192,631,770 years (recognize this number?)

What happens when Kali is done? The Hindu's speak of the 'Eye of Shiva', whereby the whole world is annihilated and re-created again: starting from the 'Golden' age, where "... Gods walk with men."

Metaphysically speaking, Shiva signifies for chaos, entropy, movement, disturbance; his interplay with Sati, who in turn signifies energy (and who, mythologically, was his wife by marriage), is believed to animate the entire material cosmos.

I could elaborate further...

How does this apply to the movie? I dont really care. The Ws might have mixed up a lot of things!

Oh, and comments on the movie:

I liked it. As a film, it's not perfect, as nothing can be truly perfect; I think it makes a good trilogy in the end, though I personally would tweak a few things - but that's just to suit my taste. I really do think the W's basically knew what they were doing, and I really do think they've only revealed so much - and that yeah, the overall point is deceptively simply anyway. I'm a bit let-down to see so many people being utterly hostile toward "mysticism", seeing any hint of it as a "cop-out" on explaining things in a "rational" manner. The "mysticism" of the trilogy is internally consistant and makes sense. It's rational; everything plays out as it should within the rules set down, and for christ's sake, one of the overall themes in the trilogy is a battle between materialistic determinism and chaotic factors that unbalance it - including "unexplainable" or unknowable factors.

Rememeber when the Mergovian says what he wants (the Oracle's eyes) "can't be given, it has to be taken".

It was: "cannot be taken, has to be given". The Oracle gave herself to Smith.

It was Smith who could see the whole thing playing out all over again -despite the Oracle lying in the water at the end.

Just as he had taken over everyone else in the Matrix, he had taken over the Oracle.

Completely.

He's a program, he had carried part of the memory from the last iteration into the next iteration with him.

When I wrote that last entry, I realised how much of a con everything was, and how blatant the Wachowski Brothers were about it - especially in the very meaning of the titles of both sequels:

Revolutions and its prequel, Reloaded were a money-spinning cyclical con-job.

'Reloaded' = making more money.

'Revolutions' = cyclical.

Hello all, this is my first post.

Is it just me, or did Trin, Morph and Seraph welch on their deal with Merovingian? They never gave him the "Fortune-teller's eyes".

Secondly, Is there anything to the "Wingless" and "Ange-sans-ailes" (wingless angel) references to Seraph from the bouncers and Mero? Or is that simply an allusion to the fact that his name is Seraph, and he has no wings :)

With all this talk of Reloaded being a prequel to Revolutions, can we not think of Revolutions as a prequel of sorts to The Matrix 1?

From The Matrix:

Morpheus: When the Matrix was first built, there was a man born inside who had the ability to change whatever he wanted, to remake the Matrix as he saw fit. It was he who freed the first of us, taught us the truth. As long as the Matrix exists the human race will never be free. After he died the Oracle prophesied his return.

From Revolutions, after Neo dies:

Sati: Will we see Neo again?

Oracle: I suspect so.

It was: "cannot be taken, has to be given". The Oracle gave herself to Smith.

Right, I totally shouldn't have put quotes around that. The Oracle doesn't fight Smith. That doesn't mean she gives herself to him. If he were raping her and she choose not to claw his eyes out would that count as consent? Just because she saw what was inevitable and didn't pretend to stop it doesn't mean it wasn't taking on the part of Smith.

And clearly, based on the fact that the Oracle version of Agent Smith goes and takes off his sunglasses immedietly after consuming the Oracle/being consumed.

How many times in all three movies does Smith choose to remove his glasses? Merv doesn't get the eyes so what is the point of him telling us he wants that, oh, yeah, cause Smith is going to take them and the functionality of the Oracle program in the end.

Also, heres a thought, if Neo and Smith are opposing forces in the universe and drawing on standard good old christianty (an d so very much more) in which ultimate good, the lord, can not exist without ultimate evil then the Neo/Smith resolution makes sense.

I am stuck on the "Power of the One". I think if that can be defined, then we can try to make sense of the Visions, stopping the calimari etc.

Sorta breaking down what the Oracle said:
"The power of the One extends beyond this world. It reaches from here all the way back to where it came from - [The Source]."

1. The One has Power
2. The Power "works" in the Matrix
3. The Power "works" outside of the Matrix
4. The Power came from the Source

The fourth point "The Power came from the Source" implies that the "superhuman" features that Neo has did not come from within himself - but rather an outside source - The Source.

If that is true, how does that work? How did The Source give the power to Neo and when did Neo receive the power - in the pod or after?

I have many other questions, but I think that will suffice for now.

Yo kottke, make a new entry with the body "The Matrix"... 10 bucks your comments will go nuts just like this entry and the reloaded entry...

fatuous says:
I know at least one of you were wondering what the significance with Mobil Ave was.

How's this:
Mobil = Limbo


That's really cool. I was wondering about that for a while.

The train station is akin to the floppy drive on your computer. It's where programs come in and out of the matrix/computer.

The reason the programs have love is because they're artificial intelligence. Love is just a word to them but it implies something. Their connection. The programs in the matrix evolve, deleting and rewritting themsleves. Sati is a combination of her parents programs.

The only reason that the machines enslaved humans in the Matrix was to use them as energy since the humans blocked out the sun. The war started because humans didn't want to acknowledge the machines as equals. Now a peace has been established. Humans can leave the matrix if they want. Not all will want to. Humans and Machines can work on clearing the sky instead of fighting. Once the sun is back the Matrix can slowly be phased out or left as a home for the programs currently living there that don't want to be deleted. Then they can live side by side.

Could Neo come back, like the Oracle says he might? Yes. The Machines take him away at the end. They could re-animate him with nanobots or something similiar. That's another story and doesn't apply here though.

But what is different about the outcome of the film? How have things changed from the world that was before Matrix 1?

I'm not speaking rhetorically: is it simply that Zion is no longer under attack?

The key differences from what was mentioned on screen seems to be that the people in the Matrix will be given a "real" choice about if they wish to remain in the Matrix or be released to the real world (remember as in the case of Cypher that not everybody wants to leave the Matrix). I assume that a sufficent percentage would choose to remain and in exchange provide power to the machines, and give the machines a chance to develop an alternative power source.

Also that Zion remains and can begin to rebuild humankind coexisting (in symbiosis) with the machines.

The rest beyond that is conjecture, unless there are missing scenes somewhere that gives further hints to the future of the world and Matrix.

I actually quite like this ending as it gives a whole world that could be explored in more detail in others media format (games, comics, books, tv series, cartoon) without causing too much problems.

More fun stuff on names. I'm not going to pretend to have any real understanding of Hindu mythology or spirituality, but

1. Sati's mother is Kamala, and her father's name is Ramachandra.
2. From what little Mr. Google has told me, Kamala (please correct me if I misunderstand, who is also known as Lakshmi) is a wife of Vishnu and a powerful and important goddess:

One excerpt from here:

"All Goddesses are One - as one knows when reading Ashtotaras. Lakshmi the consort of Vishnu, the vision of a perfect universe based on a perfect being drawn down to the bindu of our mind is Kamala. Again, what is our ultimate transcendental desire? To go back to a womb-like state of wholeness and beauty where all needs are met and we just feel the joy of existence."

Another quote from the same page:

"Well, in Kamala it is really the fulfillment of desire for pure transcendence of desire to where desire overflows and stops. Kamala is desire reaching its destination and stopping and returning to desirer. Fulfillment is Kamala. One cannot see more beauty anywhere, ever. Desire kills itself and rolls over dead at her feet. And for a woman, she becomes object of every desire and all creation stops at her feet too. One can build up knowledge and vidya past this point to Tripura where all of nature becomes one huge churning of creation as thrice great gunas of bliss, but Kamala as first Mahavidya is truly all that was ever needed, unless you want your head lopped off at the neck when you meet Chinnamasta."

3. The hackthematrixwiki points to a usenet article written by BABHRU DAS about Ramachandra. That article states, among other things, that:

A. "But Lord Ramacandra, as an ideal king, accepted only one wife, moter Sita." [pretty obvious, but for those of you who are reading while stoned, wife "Sita," daughter "Sati," Sati, Sita. More than likely there's some intentional significance to be found in this story].

B. The glossary of Kamat's Potpourri says that :

"According to the Hindu tradition and beliefs, Sri Ramachandra was born to the Dasharatha (king with ten chariots), once the emperor of Ayodhya. Ramachandra was the seventh re-incarnation (avatar) of Lord Vishnu and came upon the earth to liberate the world from evil forces.

Rama as he is commonly referred, represents the perfect man for Hindus. He honored the elders, honored his word, launched a great war to defend his wife, and as a ruler brought happiness to his population. Rama is glorified in songs, poetry and art and in some of the greatest works of Indian literature."

C. Back to the hackthematrixwiki's usenet grab, which states that

"A verse and purport in the Ninth Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam. Chapter 10, verse 54 says, Lord Ramacandra took a vow to accept only one wife and have no connection with any other women. He was a saintly king, and everything in His life was good, untinged by qualities like anger. He taught good behavior for everyone, especially for the householders, in terms of varnasrama- dharma. Thus He taught the general public by His personal activities. In his purport, Srila Prabhupada explains this further: Eka-patni-vrata, accepting only one wife, was the glorious example set by Lord Ramacandra. " [OK, not really sure what that means, but maybe someone else does/will.]

laasman says:
Hello all, this is my first post.


Hi, this is my too-manyeth.
laasman says:
Is it just me, or did Trin, Morph and Seraph welch on their deal with Merovingian? They never gave him the "Fortune-teller's eyes".

I think it's just you.

They never made any deal other than to lay down their guns in exchange for safe passage.

They did welch on *that* deal, however, when Trinity got all pissy and started hitting people because they wouldn't make the other deal that you referred to above. Of course, who knows if she picked up her own gun, and maybe the deal was just to lay them down once...

Point is, they refused to make a deal, so no, they didn't welch on it.

Although ... as I write this I'm suddenly questioning my memory. Did they actually make that deal? I can't remember for the life of me how they got out of that place. Please do correct me if I'm wrong.

When I wrote that last entry, I realised how much of a con everything was, and how blatant the Wachowski Brothers were about it - especially in the very meaning of the titles of both sequels.

Man, that's cynical. I don't know the Ws nor is much known about them, but from what I've heard, they don't seem the type to be at home right now, laughing at how stupid we are for buying their crap and rolling around in all their money. They seem genuinely interested in film and making movies and trying their best to make them engaging, fun, and good.

Are you serious Jason?

Michael Caine once said in reply to the question: "What possible reason would you have had to make that awful Jaws movie?"

And he replied "I'll give you three million reasons".

Michael Caine is one of my favourite actors - but he's like everyone else in Hollywood - he's in it to win it.

You're telling me you believe the nonsense about the Ws making these movies because they genuinely had more story to tell?

The Matrix ended.

It made Warner Brother's a fortune - and the only reason we got more was because Joel Silver handed the guys a blank chequebook to go out and buy a big money-printing machine.

If I sound cynical, it's because I feel like I've been conned.

Not only that, buy they barely even had the decency to paraphrase half of the content in the original Matrix movie from comics like Sandman and The Invisibles.

I loved The Matrix and liked Reloaded - but Revolutions was a step too far.

i'll wait till the dvd drops below 10 euro (part 1 is at 5 eur now, part 2 at 15)...

Martin says:
If I sound cynical, it's because I feel like I've been conned.

Um, a little cynical, yeah. Without even addressing your questions, Reloaded and Revolutions were filmed at the same time. They're basically a single really long (mediocre) movie with the first one as a (really) cool trailer.

Martin says:
Not only that, buy they barely even had the decency to paraphrase half of the content in the original Matrix movie from comics like Sandman and The Invisibles.

What is your point here? Barely even had the decency? Would it have been more decent if they had paraphrased more of that content or less? There's no big surprise there: they unapologetically talked about borrowing from tons of different resources.

I don't deny that the movies are essentially circular, or even that that's an unsatisfying "con" of an ending.

But Jason's absolutely right, there's simply no way that they named the movies after means of making more money. Actually, they're cool little multiple-entendre titles.

Of course "Revolutions" does address the fact that a: a revolution occurred and b: something revolved. Both of those things happened.

But you're reading more into "reloaded" than almost any fanboy has read into the plot. I don't know anybody who, on reading that phrase, would waste any of their first ten guesses on it having anything to do with money.

Dislike the movie all you want - I found lots of fault in it myself. Money-spinning machine? Sure. But your reading of the titles, specifically "reloaded" is ... wait for it ... "a step too far."

this may seem like a very amateur questions, but could someone refresh my memory and remind me as to what happens to the key maker after the huge highway chase seen in matrix revolutions?

Hey got popped by Agent Smith in the hallway. It was one of the few emotional moments of that film, actually.

kavi says: "..what happens to the key maker after the huge highway chase seen in matrix revolutions"

He died just before Neo visits the Architect and Morpheus gets unjacked from the Matrix.

When I wrote that last entry, I realised how much of a con everything was, and how blatant the Wachowski Brothers were about it - especially in the very meaning of the titles of both sequels.

Could it be that all titles put together tell us something?
Revolutions reloaded the matrix?

Answering a couple of questions here:

With regard to the Merovingian and the deal. He wanted to make a deal for the eyes of the Oracle (a bit Wizard of Oz if you ask me, but whatever). Trinity decided to take matters into her own hands and kicked a couple of butts, got a gun, and pointed it at the Merovingian's head. Guns were then pointed at everyone. The deal became (paraphrasing) "Bring Neo back, or we all die, right here, right now." Trinity's love for Neo being so strong that she was willing to die for him (but we knew that from Reloaded).

As for Seraph, the wingless one--I believe Seraph is short for Seraphim, one of the highest class of angels, God's highest servants, "there to minister to Him and proclaim His glory" perhaps his "golden" code (like the light of the machine city) alluded to his former place, and possible fall from grace (choosing to protect the Oracle?), thus being wingless.

Lastly for Kavi -- The Keymaker was killed by the Smiths while closing the door after Neo and Morpheus entered.

First post on this thread...

First off, let's just start by saying that the LAST (non-archived) Matrix thread has killed off the last two days of my productivity. I've been dying to rant about all the stuff that has gone through my head, but my own blog (at www.relativesanity.co.uk - shameless plug!) didn't seem like the place - mainly cos I didn't want to hit my friends with a bunch of spoilers.

Anyway, I've been feeling like Neo after his training in M1 - my brain is FULL of stuff from those threads, so I have to vent. Here goes!

First - I came out of Revs yesterday unsure of whether or not I enjoyed it. This is the EXACT same feeling I had coming out of Reloaded, and I know that within a week I had gone to see it again and had gone from being ambivalent about it to thinking it a work of menacing genius.

After I got back to the flat, I started back into the old thread. It was fun to start going through the posts and think to myself "right", "wrong", "SO wrong" etc.

I think what a lot of people were looking for from Revs was a final "Here's how it really is, folks. Now you can collect the cash from your local Matrix Plot Pool depending on who got closest!". What we were given seems much less satisfying - more questions than answers.

All the way through all three movies, there are lots of "Why am I here?"/"You already KNOW why" dialogues in which the audience never has spelled out to them the Why. The real question is, why did we all think that Revs was going to be any different?

Even in the very end, Smith and Neo have a whole heap of shared knowledge of what's going on that you and I don't get spelled out to us. And then it's over, no answers, just ideas, thoughts, what ifs etc. Just like at the end of Reloaded.

Like all the best mythology, the protagonists fade from memory, and we are left to use our imaginations and fill in the rest of the story as we see fit. That's what it's all about, perhaps. It's all ABOUT the discussions we have here, it's all about the "well, what if it were like THIS?" musings.

Think about it this way - examining any great mythology forces us to examine important facets of our own lives and our own beliefs that we may not encounter in our day to day trudgery. Look at the myths of Greece, or Rome, or the Norse, or Hinduism, or Buddhism, or (as was mentioned) Avalon and the Arthurian legends. Hell, lets even consider the modern myths such as Middle Earth, Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep, the Star Wars trilogy [sic ;)] and so forth. Without exception, they all leave the story "incomplete" in the sense of Hollywood style completions where everything is spelled out because cigar chomping producers don't want to scare their audience into possibly having to use their imaginations and hence feeling "conned".

For example, let's ask some questions - Is Deckard a replicant? What HAPPENS to Gandalf when he is defeated by the Balrog? What does Luke do after the Empire is defeated?

The point of most of these films/books is that they leave themselves open. The modern audience sees that as "Cynical cashing in on the inevitable sequel". I see that POV as pretty damn telling.

As someone pointed out, we WILL be discussing the Matrix in ten years, twenty years, thirty years. It's our mythology, a hero-epic for the information age, and like all myths it can take time to grow on you. I learned after bulldozing Reloaded in reviews to my friends, and then having to eat my hat a week later when admitting that I'd seen it AGAIN, that these films are slow "mind worms". They take their time, but they're worth it. Already we're seeing the burrowing of the faithful here - the analysis. So, for what it's worth, here's my gut reaction take on the few options for what I reckon has happened:

Pretty much everything went to plan for the "machines" in the end. The matrix was rebooted after the One was recompiled into the source. To back this up I cite the deja vu cat and "instant fixing" of the broken rubble right at the end, after the Smith/Neo fight. If that wasn't a reboot, what was it?

So, we have everything being "back to normal" in the Matrix, except that (as I missed but someone pointed out) everything isn't green any more. So it's a "better" matrix. As the Oracle pointed out, you need love to make a perfect cookie. The whole point is that Neo's capacity for specific love, not general affinity, has been absorbed. What matters isn't JUST the connection the word implies, but the TYPE of connection (think love for daughter vs. love for spouse).

Now, we get to the first noodle-baker, and it's what I thought as soon as Neo offered his deal to the machine. Where's his enforcement? "I'll kill Smith if you let everyone go"? "Aye, okay mate" *kills Smith*. "Ah, good. Reboot, destroy Zion, business as usual..."

So what's the deal? The machines aren't just going to sit down and take that, and the humans aren't going to sit around in Zion thinking "Well, at least we're free. Sod the fields, eh?". Nah, that war isn't over.

Unless...

Bear in mind that the Architect said that the machines "Would be willing to accept alternatives" to the use of humans as a power plant. Maybe that's what happened? In that case, what is the new matrix all about?

How about this?

Several times, the idea of the Matrix being a kind of petri dish to study emotion for the AI has come up. Let's assume that maybe this was at least PART of the reason they used humans as coppertops in the first place - we've already debated the relative inefficiencies of that route. In The Second Ren, we see AI making "better" AI, which make "better" AI. So let's assume that part of the nature of the AI is to constantly "improve" itself, in otherwords, constanty strive to be more conscious, more "human" in effect.

The AI may have realised that the Matrix was at least a double whammy. Free power PLUS a chance to study humans at ridiculously close range.

Whatever, the point is made that by the start of the third movie, the AI is already capable of producing programs witht the ability to form "care" connections. Sati