This thread is a continuation of the uber-thread about the Matrix Reloaded. My original post is here, but I've archived the thread (containing 931 comments) here.
There are 836 reader comments
• Jul 03 2003 • 12:45PM
cheers jason for letting this thread continue it has been a good forum for debate, and given many the opportunity to exchange ideas with intelligent and like minded individuals.
• Jul 03 2003 • 1:03PM
Sidarta said:
Did anyone notice that the oracle said:"I said don't worry, I'll get one of my kids to fix it"
My kids... is this meant as just one of the Potential children that are in the waiting room...? Why my kids and not one of the kids? ...
We can assume that they are potential one's, though i dispute this as surely the oracle like the architect his aware of who the one is from his/her emergence. The architect certainly does, as i mentioned on the other thread; the architect has been monitoring neo's progress constantly (which is illustrated when neo reaches the architect on the screens).
so are they potential programs? are they potential infilitrators of zion? (spoon boy/zen boy) maybe im grasping but perhaps the potentials and 'The Kid' have an important role in m3. have they attained higher awareness through design, as this hightend awareness may serve the matrix or maybe helps the humans control the matrix. Perhaps the matrix is a better option for humans and there must be a large amount of people with hightened awareness to control the matrix and exercise more freedom within the system!
• Jul 03 2003 • 1:44PM
ahhhhhhhh The thread is gone. Nooooooooo. :-)
Well at least you still kept it on file for the public and kept it going. Thanks for letting the Best thread ever continue it's life.
Has anyone thought about the possibility that the W's might bring the movie to the level where Neo is not Digitally performing supernatural abilities but actually receives superhuman powers in the real world?
Just here me out.
Now most people believe that Neo stopped the Squiddy with his superhuman digital powers because Z10N is actually another Matrix. But what if Neo is the "ONE" because he has mental capabilities above and beyond the normal human.
If you look at the quick learning and advancement of Neo's powers and abilities within the Matrix you obviously get the impression that he possesses some kind of heightened ability from everyone else. Morpheus believed this from the beginning and chose Neo because he knew Neo has this ability and would use it to become the ONE.
After the movie I seriously doubted what the Architect had told Neo. Basically that there were other ones and that Z10N has been destroyed several times before and will be destroyed if he doesn’t rebuild it. So on and so forth. So I started to think………..
What if the reason the architect and all the computer programs (Oracle and Keymaker) are trying to find the one and make him take the right door to “who knows what”, just to control the humans that have developed some special (real world) powers threw the course of evolution. Kind of like the theory behind the X-Men; that threw human evolution MANKIND HAS DEVELOPED SOME KIND OF SUPERHUMAN ABILITIES. Now of course these individuals that develop this ability are in the matrix and not in the professors school.
Now Neo was released from the matrix where he starts to realize how to harness these powers and strengthen them (MORPHEUS: “If you can free your mind, the body will follow.” Then he goes back into the matrix and is forced to realize these power even more. By the time he reaches the Architech “the process had altered his consciousness” so much that he then obtains his true potential.
Now the machines of course don’t want anyone to realize their true potential so they create The Oracle to watch over everyone with abilities like the spoon boy. When those abilities increase to the level of the “ONE” that individual gets sent to the Architect to be assimilated by taking the right door. Now I don’t mean assimilated in a good term I mean DEAD.
The Computers know that at this point he is in tune with using his mental superpowers to the peak, and that if he leaves he will realize that he is telekinetic and telepathic. SO they try to give him a contingent affirmation that is meant to create a profound attachment to the rest his species so that he will make their choice. But Neo decides to take the door to the left and not be fooled by the architect. Then he uses his physic powers when he stops the squiddy, and that is the first true enlightenment in the movies thus far.
The W’s must have thought about this because the comparison is made in the Oracles living room where we see what today would be known as physic abilities. Girls (witches) and Buddhist monk children doing things that people in society today are thought to be able to do when enlightened.
Now wouldn’t that be quite the plot twist if in the third movie, Z10N is the real world and certain humans or just Neo learn how to use their minds to control their surroundings with physic abilities. And then we could realize that is why the machines imprisoned the human race: to stop us from realizing our true evolutionary potential.
• Jul 03 2003 • 1:45PM
check this site out regarding revolutions: maybe bull, though its sounds pretty good to me, maybe some truth in some of what was said.
http://ubb.empireonline.co.uk/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=matrix
&Number=222964&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1
• Jul 03 2003 • 2:00PM
Bell says: The architect states that each version of the matrix lasts the same amount of time as it takes from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the next.
The Architect says that he prefers counting how old the matrix is from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next, in which case this is would be the sixth version.
So what he is saying is that in his way of counting the Matrix is Six Years Old.
Bell says: have they attained higher awareness through design, as this heightened awareness may serve the matrix or maybe helps the humans control the matrix.
Exactly my point. Check out the post above.
• Jul 03 2003 • 2:12PM
Ghost, I think that you could be right to a point regarding the architect, i think there are untruths in what he says, as he wants to manipulate neo. Manipulation usualy invovles a great deal of lying. read the web site highlighted i think it might open a few more avenues of thought.
http://ubb.empireonline.co.uk/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=matrix
&Number=222964&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1
• Jul 03 2003 • 2:28PM
well i found this on the net, as did the person before me it would seem. Beware this could be true...
***********Spoiler Start***************
Okay, Neo's in Matrix "limbo" - somehow his mind got "jacked in" to a train
stop outside the Matrix - the wild eyed guy in the Rev. trailer is the train
man, controlled by the Merovingian. The Oracle tells Trin and Morph this and
they threaten Merv (you're willing to die for this man?) and go and save Neo
(who in the meantime has met some new characters and had a vision of three
lines in the black dessert). Back in the real world now. Niobe gives Neo and
Trinity the logos ship after the Hammer powers it up so they can go to the
machine city (01) and try and save Zion. Meanwhile Bane (Smith) has
awakened, killed the nurse and snuck into the Logos. The Hammer heads back
to Zion to try and stop the sentinels with its emp as a last ditch effort,
and soon realize Bane has killed, escaped and must be on the Logos - but
it's too late to turn back and save Trin and Neo. Aboard the logos, Bane
blinds Neo with an electrical conduit during a fight before Neo kills him
(just after realizing he's smith inside) Trinity is beat up but okay to fly
the ship, with Neo's "second sight" - he can somehow sense the machines
life-force and "sees" them now. The Hammer tries to sneak back to Zion but
the sentinels hear them and chase them all the way home. Meanwhile, Zion is
getting the **** kicked out of it by all the sentinels. The crippled Hammer
crashes into Zion and blows it's EMP knocking out the remaining diggers and
sentinels. Meanwhile the logos is on the surface, flying over/by the fetus
fields and power plant, following three power lines to the city (like in his
vision). In Zion, they are trying to restore power while evacuating to the
deep tunnels and temple cave from Reloaded. More sentinels arrive in the
defenseless Zion and jump start a digger to continue into the bowels of Zion
and finish of the rest of it's people. Neo and Trinity have now crash landed
into the machine city after fending off bigger, meaner sentinels and an
armada of huge ships shooting shrimp bombs like from Reloaded. Trinity dies
from the crash and Neo goes on to confront a huge godlike machine that he
makes a deal with to confront smith and save the matrix (and the Ai's ?)
from being taken over (smith has altered the matrix and cloned himself into
everyone). Back in Zion the sentinels stop their attack at the last minute
and wait. The ai's jack Neo in and he fights smith, smith wins (neo pretends
to lose or fights long enough to prove he tried) and takes him over, but the
new clone freaks out, (the machine city ai has a direct link to smith now)
explodes and all the smiths explode or something... Neo dies as a result and
is hauled off by the AI's to who knows where. Everyone rejoices and the
matrix get's reloaded with a truce between man and machine.
"what about morpheus, the council and previous ones?" - morpheus navigates
the hammer for niobe (the best driver- I think ghost must be manning the
guns) and faces off with the sentinels at the opening to the zion temple
(story boards of this was spoiled a couple years ago), he may take part in a
fight to save neo, but that's about it - (he lives). i don't remember the
council being mentioned or anything about previous ones
"What about the kid" - he plays an important role durring the battle by
manning a fallen mech and shooting a chain on the zion dock door at the last
second, allowing it to open so the hammer can enter zion and use its emp. -
he lives
-no cypher, no matrix within a matrix, no phone booth scene from matrix one.
-seraph(puts up a good fight),oracle,important child (mentioned in
game)...all taken over by smith
I left out a lot of details obviously (fights,take-overs,etc.) but that's
the main jist of it.
hope you don't regret reading this!
////END SPOILER////
The stop of train station hold water, and kind of eradicates my matrix within a matrix theory (so im going to have to mull this over for some time).
• Jul 03 2003 • 2:40PM
ubb.empireonline.co.uk: Everyone rejoices and the
Matrix gets reloaded with a truce between man and machine.
Is that supposed to be some sort of happy ending? Not that I expect the ending to be happy but if the matrix gets reloaded I don't think that everyone will be rejoicing. THE ENTIRE PLOT OF THE MOVIE IS TO BRING THE MATRIX DOWN. If it doesn’t come down then the W's better be clever. And they are
You know that’s another thing. Everyone says “It’s going to suck if there’s a matrix in a matrix.” But that all depends on how the W’s lay it out. There are so many variables that could make that scenario work.
But as far as that post goes... I give it a 6.5 in creativity, and if I could judge the truth behind it, it would get a 2.5 until I see proof.
• Jul 03 2003 • 3:36PM
Ghost said:
Now the machines of course don’t want anyone to realize their true potential so they create The Oracle to watch over everyone with abilities like the spoon boy. When those abilities increase to the level of the “ONE” that individual gets sent to the Architect to be assimilated by taking the right door. Now I don’t mean assimilated in a good term I mean DEAD.
Um, if that was all there was to it, why wouldn't the Architect just kill him?
• Jul 03 2003 • 4:13PM
No one else could, why would he be able to? Could be Neo was too strong:)
Or to continue the general gist of the thread... It could be that the Architect wanted Neo to go to the source for a dissemination of his mental abilities (code). This would be because the machines wanted to understand and reproduce how a mind (or spirit) could have abilities (telekinesis and telepathy) that defied the natural laws that the machines were originally programmed to comprehend.
You have to omit; it is an awesome theory. Although it’s a little shaky it would still be a great ending to a great story.
What'da ya think?
• Jul 04 2003 • 5:29AM
I have read this so called revolutions plot and it doesn't fly for me. It's very nice but I think the real ending of the trilogy will be different. I mean, how could some guy just get this from the internet. Or the Wachowski's have serious security problems and they screwed up the script, or everything is made up.
Anyways, I would like to ask the following.
Link in TMR: "He is doing the Superman thing"... huh? Link is a 100% old fashion home grown human being right? Than I guess he can't know about Superman if Zion is real, or he should be watching Lois & Clark shows in the Matrix code all the time right? OR...
Zion is MAtrix too,...? or... Idunno'
• Jul 04 2003 • 8:51AM
after mulling over that revolution plot, i dont go along with the whole premise (though its the best one so far), though i think the half way station between the matrix and zion is quite intersting, you would assume there is some kind of link in order to filter out virus's etc, from one system to another. I think who ever wrote the plot premise watched the trailer and was just creative with it, If it is close to the truth i will be dissappointed!
siddarta says: Link in TMR: "He is doing the Superman thing"... huh? Link is a 100% old fashion home grown human being right? Than I guess he can't know about Superman if Zion is real, or he should be watching Lois & Clark shows in the Matrix code all the time right? OR...
Zion is MAtrix too,...? or... Idunno'
Ive often wondered about that comment, it could be seen as a referentiail cinematic comment, though i look at the matrix with the highest of scrutiny, if he was plugged to the matrix there is a possibility that he may have read a comic, but he is home grown and i doubt zion has DC comics lying about lying about.
in m1 when neo is in the tunnel, and just about to get into the car with switch and trin, written on the wall (graffiti) is TANK IS WRONG. i have no idea what it refers to?anybody
• Jul 04 2003 • 9:15AM
after watching m2 again, i think persophone is the mother, her motive for allowing them to have the keymaker can not be souly down to playing games with her hubby. (i know this topic has come up before) her kiss with neo is under the direction of the architect, it is a means of testing the bond between neo and trinity. The strength of there love and trust is tested when neo kisses persophone, Knowing the strength of their bond, this allow's the architect to play his ace; is ace being neo's obvious loyalty to trinity, neo will do anything to save her. so he shows trin in danger knowing very well which door neo is going to take, which brings us back to the architect's WHY? knowing the WHY is knowing everything one suspects.
siddarta, perhaps link was browsing through the zion archive, and saw Superman the movie!
• Jul 04 2003 • 9:31AM
when neo meets the oracle at the playground, she mentions her concern for the future, she is eluding to the survival of both programs and humans in the matrix, presumebly getting on. smith is the destructive part of neo that threatens to destroy the matrix. Though smith says that things are different this time, suggesting that he never multiplied as he does in previous matrix's. if the other matrix's did exist how then were they threatend, where did the threat come from (is it because the 'one' went through the left door earlier not allowing smith to become as powerfull in earlier versions of the matrix?)
the 2 slashes on bains hand when he cuts himself, are they significant marking's of any kind?
• Jul 04 2003 • 9:50AM
using the hades/merovingian theory, maybe the entire matrix is the underworld (basement so to speak) part of a larger construct. Neo is being promoted very quickly through higher levels, each level seems to be real, when neo realises its not something else is thrown at him. so what gonna be thrown at him when he realises zion is fake? a desert with 3 lines perhaps?
• Jul 04 2003 • 11:37AM
Bell said: if the other matrix's did exist how then were they threatend, where did the threat come from
the real threat is still the inefficiency that the matrix is working on. cfr. "did you know that the first matrix was originally designed to be a perfect world? It was a disaster..."
So actually, AI is still figuring out how to run the matrix in a better way for human beings to accept it. AI as such is just too perfect to make something imperfect for humans.
Hence, AI needs the different Ones to changes the code of the matrix and make it work better. If the matrix doesn't get reloaded from time to time, at the end everyone will die, or better the human-machine symbiosis will die.
Because I don't think the machines need the humans for their energy, if they have fusion. And also I think they're smart enough to solve the problem of the scorced sky. It's just symbiosis.
As for the hand cutting part, zion beeing fake etc... see the old threat.
• Jul 04 2003 • 12:17PM
You're all still here! How nice to hit the blog and not have to wait for 40 seconds for the thing to load. Thanks to our host for taking care of that. This new revolution should take us through the end of August before needing another reload.
siddarta says:
Link in TMR: "He is doing the Superman thing"... huh? Link is a 100% old fashion home grown human being right? Than I guess he can't know about Superman if Zion is real
Ha! You caught 'em! To be fair, I'd say that it wouldn't be inconceivable for a knowledgeable guy like Link to be familiar with Superman. Although he's never jacked into the Matrix himself, he does have the skills necessary to observe from the outside with the Neb's monitoring tools. My only question: was he was thinking about George Reeves, Christopher Reeve, or Dean Cain?
As I typed that, a certain similarity to Keanu Reeves jumped out @ me. Go figure.
bell says:
in m1 when neo is in the tunnel, and just about to get into the car with switch and trin, written on the wall (graffiti) is TANK IS WRONG. i have no idea what it refers to?anybody
Nice catch, worthy of analysis. There's a particular line from M1 that comes to mind:
TANK: Me and my brother Dozer, we are 100 percent pure, old-fashioned, home-grown human. Born free. Right here in the real world.
So wrong. Btw, how'd you like my artwork? ;)
• Jul 04 2003 • 12:20PM
okay folks - well haven't posted in a while, but I was watching the animatrix on DVD for the first time tonight (man is it ever pretty) and I had a thought.
In the episode "A detective story" trinity says to the sam spade style detective..."there is a difference betweena trap and test"
This got me thinking - what if the matrix is just a giant turing test.
I don't know if it is a test for machine intelligence or for human intelligence - but what if it isn't a trap - what if it is a test.
whoever rejects the matrix - passes.
but I don't think it is an intelligence test - or even an artificial intelligence test. Afer all - the test subjects are being asked to ignore the reality of their experience - to forget the rules of the world.
perhaps it is an emotion test - even a "consciousness test"
who knows - maybe it is an alien intelligences way of trying to figure out if humans are conscious self aware life....
in the end - the nature of the choices - left door or right, red pill or blue - binary choices strikes me as being very interesting.
what does it mean - for an entity to reject everything it knows about reality, to ignore all of it's day to day experiences - and chose the red pill - choose to find out the "truth".
is that what seperates life from simple chemistry and physics...
hmmm...
Man I hope the W. Bros have something absolutely brain smashingly, noodle bakingly good for us in revolutions.
• Jul 04 2003 • 12:32PM
ps - it really is worth watching the animatrix again and again... each time I watch it I catch more and more that appears to be directly related to the movies.
We all know the obvious ones -
kids story vs. the spoon delivery kid
final flight of the osiris vs. the osiris data drop
but what about the others -
The haunted house in Beyound where the rules of the matrix are bent/ broken => the concept of the matrix degrading in revolutions.
another example of self substantiation in "world record".
the "tests" / choice in both "the program" and "a detective story".
the test / choice in matriculated.
the idea in matriculated that machines don't know the difference between a "simulated reality" and a real one...
so much that can be profitably added to the matrix cannon.
i am so looking forward to the super special limited editon directors cut version with the audio commentary that explains all of this...
• Jul 04 2003 • 1:06PM
Brisvegas says:
In the episode "A detective story" trinity says to the sam spade style detective..."there is a difference betweena trap and test"
In first few scenes of M1, we learn that Neo is simply the next target on the Neb's long List Of Candidate Ones. It makes sense that these "candidates" would undergo a screening test of sorts. The "tests", given to Neo and the detectives by Trinity and her cohorts, seem to be aimed @ their curiosities, testing the degree of how far they'll go to find the answers. Why? Because the One would go all the way. From the Nebbers' point of view, such a test would serve as a practical way to eliminate non-Ones.
I'm not entirely sure if the detective in "A Detective Story" was a pre-Neo target that the Nebbers suspected could be the One. However, it makes sense that this is precisely what was happening with his hunt for Trinity: While the detective thought he was finding her (and Morpheus), it was she (and Morpheus) who found him. This is very similar to Neo's search for Morpheus in M1. Also note that @ least two of the three detectives (targets?) before him failed their own respective tests: One commited suicide, the other went insane. The third disappeared. It can be argued that the third left the Matrix successfully. Hmm... Bane?
Regarding "World Record":
I just tripped on how this phrase contains two contextual meanings:
1. "World Record", as in "the highest accomplishment for this track event ever recorded in the world", as portrayed in the Animatrix.
2. "World Record", as in "the known recorded history of the world."
• Jul 05 2003 • 6:11AM
Spoon Boy and Brisvegas and all others, glad to see you're back!
I was thinking of the following:
A little thought experiment:
“Leave me with him… now!”
The Agents seem to not immediately understand, but obey Smith.
Smith is doing something odd in their eyes.
“… I hate this place, this Zoo, this reality or whatever you want to call it… It’s the smell!...”
Smith hates the Matrix, he doesn’t want to be in the Matrix forever. Because all he gets to do is finding those idiots from Zion with the aim of finding the One and ultimately destroying Zion. Smith as a program has changed his goal from ‘destroy Zion – reload Matrix – and there we go again – jeez, boring’ to ‘destroy Zion and be free as a program’
“Once Zion is destroyed, there is no need for me to be here anymore”
He wants to be free of the matrix Agency. Apparently, Neo took away Smith’s reason for existence. Smith wanted to escape anyway from the Matrix, but with Neo he needs to find another way. Let’s face it, he wanted to after all (“I hate this place”)
“It happened as before…” “Well, not exactly as before…”(gringe)
I think Smith refers here to the previous ones. He has encountered other Ones and it appears to me that not every One has reloaded the matrix. I mean, it seems that Smith is knowing about other Ones, but not knowing about other reloads (“once Zion is destroyed, there is no need for me to be here…”)
“I need to get inside Zion, and in this mind is the key, my key!”
This is absolutely a reference to Reloaded, not only the fact that Smith wants to get inside Zion, but also the reference for the key issue seems strange. Smith knows about the Keymaker, it seems.
And I still wonder how he managed to get inside the secret corridor to get to Neo and Morpheus that wanted to reach the Source.
Ideas anyone? Who can help me out?
• Jul 05 2003 • 6:46AM
OK, before answering some of your posts, I would like to share with you a biblical issue that, to my memory, has not been posted before.
“The function of the One is now to return to the source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program, after which you will be required to select from the Matrix 23 individuals, 16 women, 7 men, to rebuild Zion”
OK people, take out that Gideon’s bible if you have it somewhere or just look it up on the web. Take Genesis, Chapter 7, verse 16 to 23, read and enjoy. OMG!!!
Genesis 7:16-23 “The animals going in were male and female of every living thing, as God had commanded Noah. Then the Lord shut him in. For forty days the flood kept coming on the earth, and as the waters increased they lifted the ark high above the earth. The waters rose and increased greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered. The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than twenty feet. Every living thing that moved on the earth perished – birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind. Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; men and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds of the air were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.”
Hmm… seems to me that there is indeed a huge amount of rain in the Revolutions trailer.
And... seems to me that "Noah" is not that different from "Neo"
I like this trilogy more and more and more…;-)
• Jul 06 2003 • 10:24PM
There's something that really "baked my noodle" after watching reloaded. Near the end at the maintenance exits when Smith confronts Neo . Morpheus & the Keymaker, Neo asks Smith "What do you want ?" Smith replys " I want exactly as you want , I want everything." Now assuming Smith has already figured something out that Neo still hasnt figured, what does that reply mean? Smith says before replying that aforementioned quote that "oh you havent figured that out? still using all the muscles except the one that matters" basically means that he has knowledge of something that Neo still doesnt know about or hasnt figured out yet. Does that mean that Neo also wants everything but still doesnt know it yet??
• Jul 06 2003 • 11:18PM
And oh Neo is such a dumbass for not figuring out things out and letting us viewers try to figure to to message boards to try to figure it out for ourselves LOL :)
• Jul 08 2003 • 3:13AM
Brisvegas said that the matrix could be a giant Turin test.
I kind of like this Turin test stuff. Although I don't think the matrix turns towards this plot, it still proves how creative the human brain can be in interpreting certain issues that we've encountered with the Matrix. I remember from the 931 post thread that someone said that the right answer to the Matrix philosophy should be on Kottke's Matrix thread since we were with so many and the W. bro's with only 2. I disagree. We all are individuals who have our own specific thoughts and who are watching details from the movie that the W bro's created to mislead us.
And let's face it. With that much individual persons, we are not. Currently we're only 5 to 10 that regularly post.
• Jul 08 2003 • 12:15PM
Siddarta says:
Genesis 7:16-23
Cool! Keep your eyes peeled for a reference to the number 40, as in 40 days/nights.
• Jul 08 2003 • 6:03PM
Another thing I want to discuss is the theme of Fate and Destiny and belief in them, which is heavily saturated, threw the movies.
Fate:
1. The supposed force, principle, or power that predetermines events.
2. The inevitable events predestined by this force.
3. A final result or consequence; an outcome. Unfavorable destiny; doom.
4. The ultimate agency that predetermines the course of events
Destiny:
1. The inevitable or necessary fate to which a particular person or thing is destined.
2. A predetermined course of events considered as something beyond human power or control.
3. The power or agency thought to predetermine events.
It could be Morpheus’s belief in Neo's Destiny to be the one. Or in Neo’s belief in the course of events laid out by the Oracle, these are forces that are referenced in almost every major scene in both movies.
The first time we run into it is when Neo meets Morpheus. The first thing that he asks Neo is “Do you believe in fate, Neo?” NEO: “No.” MORPHEUS: “Why not?” NEO: “Because I don't like the idea that I'm not in control of my life.” MORPHEUS: “I know exactly what you mean.” The reason he asked this is because everything that MORPHEUS BELIEVES AND NEO MUST BELIEVE is baised on fate. It is the Morpheus’s quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength.
Question #1: Why would Morpheus tell Neo he knew exactly what he meant when Morpheus actually believes so blindly that he would die for his belief?
Question #2: The Machines must have discovered a way to tap into the power of fate and destiny because they were able to know what will happen threw the course of events that surround THE ONE. Sometimes they even influence the future by saying what will happen. Example of this is when the Oracle told Neo he wasn’t the One Just so he would save Morpheus. If Neo believed that he was the One then he wouldn’t have gone back in to save Morpheus and become the one. Or it could be fate and destinies in the Matrix are just an illusion of the people in power. What do you think?
I was going to write a more detailed piece but I’m not sure if anyone’s out there reading anymore. So it’s not just these listed above but I’m sure you probably have your own intriguing examples. Like the Oracle stating that we have already made our choice we just have to understand why?
• Jul 08 2003 • 8:36PM
Hi
this is a great thread, glad to see it got reloaded.
I have a couple of questions, hope some of you can help:
1. Where does Trinity get those guns from, just before she leaps out the window?
I know its trivial, but its been bugging me!
2. Have any of the DVD releases had commentary by the W Bros. or included deleted scenes?
g
• Jul 09 2003 • 3:31AM
Ghost said: Question #1: Why would Morpheus tell Neo he knew exactly what he meant when Morpheus actually believes so blindly that he would die for his belief?
Yes indeed, it seems like a "contradictio in termis". Morpheus doesn't believe in fate, but he blindly believes in the fate that the Oracle tells him about (allthough he says in TM1: "an oracle's different" in response to Neo's question whether an Oracle can predict)
Concerning fate and destiny being an illusion for people with power. I have to think this over. For what it's worth, I keep reading everything that is posted on this thread, even if it's at low pace.
greets,
• Jul 09 2003 • 8:19AM
Hey, i just realized something cool on the biblical/matrix level.
"Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world? Where none suffered, where everyone would be happy. It was a disaster. No one would accept the program. Entire crops were lost."
To me that perfect human world sounds alot like the garden of eden dosn't it?
"When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves. (NIV)"
It sounds as if the first matrix was perfect except that man had to have the knowledge to be self aware, OR IT COULD BE JUST BE AWARE AND CONSIOUS. Once he strived for it and obtained it, he was then banished from the garden and god punished him with a reality that was not perfect and formed by pain.
That sounds right to me...
• Jul 09 2003 • 8:34AM
Indeed, this was already suggested in a website called hollywoodjesus.com i believe. It is very plausible that TM1 gives a reference to Eden.
by the way, you may find it interesting too that the Garden of Eden was exactly at the place where 01 is now. Yep, somewhere in Iraq, so it seems, where the cradle of human civilization is.
It seems that AI has chosen its location for building 01 on an interesting spot.
we have 963 comments now, not bad.
• Jul 09 2003 • 10:51AM
Can someone help me understand this...
When the Oracle said that we have already made our choices but now we have to understand why we made them. Does this mean that our destiny is predetermined because who we are causes us to make the specific choices we choose?
This statement holds alot of weight. It states that we are predestined to fulfill our destiny and that's it no ifs ands or buts. I personally can't agree with this in the slightest.
Now some people argue that our brain doesn’t realize what we're doing until it's done because of our neuron kinetics or something like that but I will argue the point that our destiny is not pre-determined.
Now you might be thinking how can DESTINY not be PRE-DETERMINED? It is in definition that. Well my personal belief is that in our life there are several paths like a river splitting up into tributaries and the tributaries then splitting over and over and re-merging with one another. These splits are the choices that we make; the big splits are big choices and the small ones, small.
Now destiny for me comes in because I believe that the little choices are somewhat pre-determined because there is no drive, emotion, or much conscious decision to them.
On the other hand the larger choices in my belief are strongly influences by the factors that make us human: love, hate, fear, loathing, hope, and several others. Also the fact that we are conscious gives us the option to change our destiny at any time we consciously perceive it. “Why would the universe go through the trouble of evolving consciousness?” “If it wanted life that would succeed, just to create the most effective living thing, it could have stopped at bacteria. But consciousness goes a quantum step further than just life.” Jerry Garcia. In this quote you kind of see that that consciousness alone could allow us to change and create our own destiny, it is one of the defining factors that make us humans.
But stating that the choices have already been made cannot be true because of the fact that the human psyche is unpredictable. All of those things that make us human define the choices we make with the levels of each defining human quality that an individual possesses. In this way even though all the ONES were based on a similar predication, witch is a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment. That is only a play on the emotions of the ONE. This alone cannot be enough to influence the choice that was presented because too many factors are present for the machines to control all of them.
The Merovingian said that everything is cause and effect because he is a machine. To them everything is planed and based on logic. Once again the Factors That Make Us Human Are Not Logical. So even though Merv states that there has to be a why for every action this is not so for humans. Humans like Neo don’t need a why to influence their actions. Neo didn’t need the contingent affirmation. That didn’t even factor his decision.
In conclusion it is my belief that those two main points made by the merv and the oracle were untrue based on destiny and fate because the individuals destiny and fate are uncontrollable forces that are influenced by factors outside the machines comprehension.
I dunno just wandering….
• Jul 10 2003 • 3:50AM
Does this mean that our destiny is predetermined because who we are causes us to make the specific choices we choose?
If you put it this way, it partly seems so. "Know yourself" the Oracle stated. Based on who you are, you will know what decisions you 'll have to make. In this sense, destiny is predetermined, but...
don't forget what determines when you have to make these choices. When you make these choices depends on the situation you're in. And the situation itself is - at least to my feeling - not part of destiny, it's just stochastic. If it would be part of destiny, than it's not our personal destiny, than it is a general destiny, name it the destiny of reality.
Now destiny for me comes in because I believe that the little choices are somewhat pre-determined because there is no drive, emotion, or much conscious decision to them.
The little choices are indeed typical for ourselves, they are personal.
“If it wanted life that would succeed, just to create the most effective living thing, it could have stopped at bacteria.
I kind of disagree. Allthough bacterial cells are extremely effective, the reason that cells in general started communicating and then aggregating and then forming multicellular organisms, was that it gave them certain advantages and a higher efficiency in certain situations over single cells. (Even our own mitochondria inside our cells are believed to be bacterial remainders).
To not loose the link with the matrix in this issue, you have to think about how AI wanted artificial life or life in general (including humans) to proceed. AI has not chosen for massive production as such in which it would be extremely effective in surviving, but with a lot of losses. No, instead, AI has chosen for a high degree of complexity, the one from the Matrix, making interaction and symbiosis (I'm convinced by the latter, in contrast to most Zionists) between machines and humans possible. Not always very effective, but giving certain advantages in certain situations. (Allthough it seems that they're currently heading towards a cataclismic event, now that Neo's chosen the left door).
In conclusion it is my belief that those two main points made by the merv and the oracle were untrue based on destiny and fate because the individuals destiny and fate are uncontrollable forces that are influenced by factors outside the machines comprehension.
Well, they're two ways of approaching this. Considering Merv and the Oracle as being programs, they do everything based on logic (even if Merv were human, he's been jacked in so long that he thinks programlike). Hence, they are not in the situation of knowing what destiny holds. But...
On the other hand, they find themselves in a reality that is more or less under control, and that has or has not looped before (I think it has). Thus if the Oracle knows the character Neo or other persons well enough she knows how they will respond because she can foresee certain situations in the matrix, as most of it is under control, it is a scenario that has been written out. Hence she would be able to predict destiny in this controlled environment.
just my thoughts...
• Jul 10 2003 • 10:32AM
DO you believe that the Images of Neo in the Monitors with the Tech, were the Other Ones (and looked the same as Neo)? And do you think that Neo's actions in this version could possibly be exact to the actions of the Ones in the past. If that were so then there is more to the story then we could possibly know right now, I’d say that much.
Also on the issue of AI. I think that the AI has to have a central control, right? Since it's a computer I kind of picture the whole AI population as working like the Borg on star trek (as on singular consciousness. Otherwise it would have to work like a Hierarchy of control. If so wouldn't the Machines have struggles for power? Or is that below their thinking? I think not. If in fact there is rouge programs that rebel in the matrix then there must be programs doing the same outside it!! And then programs like Smith would try to take over the whole of the AI.
Another question is, how AI are these machines? Terminator, Borg, Data, I really don't know. It seems that the programs in the matrix are capable of thinking with feeling and not just logic. Or mabey feelings and emotions are just a virus to the AI?
Oh yeah, I must apologize. There was more to that quote.
“Why would the universe go through the trouble of evolving consciousness? If it wanted life that would succeed, just to create the most effective living thing, it could have stopped at bacteria. Or it could have stopped at vertebrates or sharks. But consciousness goes a quantum step further than just life. It might be that conciousness is the whole reason there is a universe."
• Jul 10 2003 • 10:38AM
Where's Spoon Boy????
• Jul 10 2003 • 10:50AM
whjere did u get the matrix revolutions script
• Jul 10 2003 • 12:02PM
http://ubb.empireonline.co.uk/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=matrix &Number=222964&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1
No one knows if it's for real?????
• Jul 10 2003 • 1:43PM
Regarding the Garden of Eden connection
Interesting stuff you guys bring up here. Additional thoughts to roll around are the similarities of the Merovingian to Eden's serpent, as well as Persephone to Eve. Also, this whole topic brings us back to the idea of consumption, where some in the thread have pointed out that both the Mero and Persephone tried to get Neo to consume food/drink. It was Persephone, the woman, who eventually got Neo to bite on the lipstick. Obvious similarities to Eve persuading Adam to bite into the forbidden fruit.
Ghost says: Another question is, how AI are these machines? Terminator, Borg, Data, I really don't know.
Data. Software. Not machines in a physical/mechanical sense. Programs. For those who've seen T3, you may have noticed that they've caught on to that.
• Jul 10 2003 • 2:25PM
Could the albino's sybolize Cain and Able, The son's of Adam and Eve... And speaking of that, there are actully two henchman of Merv named Cain and Able in the game. They were the two in the movie that Persephone shot. Wow that is freaking awesome. I think were on to somthing here.......
Never ceases to amaze.
• Jul 10 2003 • 2:34PM
Sorry about the spelling in my last post. The Cain and Able thing was too much.
When I said data I meant the AI in Star Trek named Data. I was hoping someone would choose witch was a better example of the level of AI in the Matrix.
• Jul 10 2003 • 4:31PM
FYI Someone mentioned the standard galactic alphabet being used in the 'real world' on Neo's door just before the Oracle scene. I'll have to check that out.
• Jul 10 2003 • 5:21PM
Someone mentioned the standard galactic alphabet being used in the 'real world' on Neo's door just before the Oracle scene.
Cool. The Standard Galactic Alphabet or SGA is used in the Commander Keen series of computer games.
Hint, hint...
• Jul 11 2003 • 11:19AM
I just come back from Reloaded for the 3rd time now.
I have to think things over during the weekend but some quick remarks:
The drilling machines are indeed in MAtrix code in the beginning of the movie.
Neo's door: It looks like standard galactic alphabet, I 've clearly memorized what the dots were, but none of them fit with the SGA.
Persephone is the mother of the matrix to me.
the word "One" indeed disappears from the play yard once Smith pops in to begin the Burly Brawl.
The Oracle says that Merv is one of the oldest programs. So he must've been in the very first matrix, surviving all other versions.
Smith says that after his defeat in TM1 he got to know the rules but he had to be deleted (he disobeyed here). Hence the Agents are completely ignorant of the function of the One. He's considered an anomaly, but without knowing his true purpose.
Also, the keymaker needs to be deleted, because he has no purpose in the eyes of the Agents (again they're ignorant).
I have absolutely no idea who the guy was that was lead away from Merv just before Neo, Trin and Morph arive.
There are 12 counselors, and with a quick count, 3 men and 9 women I believe (but I'm not sure).
The license plate nr. of Trin's car during the high way chase scene reads AD2003 or DA2003 or OA2003, I 'm only sure about 2003, but if it's AD, then it could be Anno Domini 2003 (Year of the Lord 2003).
The license plate nr. of the Agents in this scene is TX729. I'm not sure if this is relevant. The nine keeps coming back.
I'm sure there's something wrong with the spoon.
Bane (aka smith) cuts the lifelines in his hand, that's all.
If the Architect knows what Neo is about to do, why bother the whole complexity of the plot?
Morpheus says in Zion: Good night Zion, sweet dreams. Very nice ref. for Morpheus being the God of Dreams.
THE MOST IMPORTANT THING:
at the very end of the movie when Morpheus speaks in his red chair ("I believe this night holds for every one of us the very true meaning etc."), there is a very very very quick shot of the Sentinels on a background which exactly looks like Zion by night when Morpheus says ("good night Zion, sweet dreams"). Strange isn't it, after all, they did not get inside Zion yet, they just got to one of the main lines.
Oh, and it is not the Hammer that EMP'd the squiddies, it was Neo and no-one else. Neo has realized his higher powers now (for those of you who would still be doubting).
I know this post may not contribute to something at all, I just wanted to let you know. Have a nice weekend.
• Jul 11 2003 • 11:22AM
hey - has anyone noticed the design for zero-one (the machine city state) in the animatrix.
it is a rounded dome with a central core that projects down into the earth...
I dont have access to it anymore - but it seems to appear to be very similar to the way that zion is represented in the matrix revolutions trailer when they talk about the machines only being 24 hours away...
also in final flight of the osiris - zion is said to be only 4 kilometers straight down from the surface.
wouldn't be full on if zion (zi-on) and Zero-One were one and the same location... I wonder what the implications of that would be?
• Jul 11 2003 • 12:48PM
Siddarta says:
The license plate nr. of the Agents in this scene is TX729. I'm not sure if this is relevant. The nine keeps coming back.
You're right about nine. 729 is nine in numerology (i.e. 7+2+9=18; 1+8=9).
While probably irrelevant, it's an interesting coincidence that TX is the name of the female Terminator in T3.
the word "One" indeed disappears from the play yard once Smith pops in to begin the Burly Brawl
I've been thinking about this weeks. It's beginning to seem like everything's coming back to Smith. I can't say with confidence that Smith isn't The One.
gez says:
Where does Trinity get those guns from, just before she leaps out the window?
They were probably in the seat compartment of the motorcycle she came flying in on.
• Jul 11 2003 • 12:54PM
Re: TX729
If anybody feels like brainstorming this one, "TX729" could be considered as short-hand for "transfer seven to nine".
• Jul 11 2003 • 3:54PM
The only thing that I can come up with is that TX stands for Text. And that 729 stands for chapter 7 verse 9 in the bible. Now the only thing is that there are quite a few chapter 7 verse 9's. But that's what a brainstorm is all about. Also the 729 could be a date (7/29) or possibly a time (7:29). Any thoughts???
• Jul 11 2003 • 7:46PM
Does Texas have some sort of secret state holiday on July 29th that we don't know about? lol...
• Jul 12 2003 • 1:30AM
I yhink you are wrong about the matrix code at the start of the film being a representation of a digger....
I have a downloaded copy of the film and have watched that segment over and over.
To me it looks very much like the internals of the clock that the code morphs into at the end of the sequence - you see cogs, gears and screws - how does that relate to the digger.
If in fact it was a representation of the digger... then bam.. thats all the evidence you need for a matrix in a matrix idea of zion... and I don't think the W. Bros would give us that in the first 5 secs of the film.
• Jul 12 2003 • 11:04AM
gez says:
Where does Trinity get those guns from, just before she leaps out the window?
Spoon Boy says:
They were probably in the seat compartment of the motorcycle she came flying in on.
Yeah but we see her fighting the Agent for several minutes in a skintight suit and there's no way she could have those guns in her suit, they're pretty big.
I can't figure it because I'm pretty sure on set they would have to consider it - where does Carrie-Anne get these big guns from?
Brisvegas1 says:
To me it looks very much like the internals of the clock that the code morphs into at the end of the sequence - you see cogs, gears and screws - how does that relate to the digger.
I agree - I always thought it looks like the cogs and gears of a clock.
What do you all think the Oracle means when she says "you didn't come here to make a choice, you've already made it, you came here to try and understand why you made it." ??
This is the main topic of their conversation and we know from the first film that they don't just give the Oracle throw away lines, they're always important altho we have to wait to see their true meaning.
Is she suggesting that Neo has done all this before?
Or is she trying to raise his self-awareness - know thyself.
g
• Jul 12 2003 • 6:12PM
gez says:
What do you all think the Oracle means when she says "you didn't come here to make a choice, you've already made it, you came here to try and understand why you made it." ??
Is she suggesting that Neo has done all this before?
I don't believe she's referring to the past when speaking of Neo's choice. She's telling him he's a program fulfilling his purpose. He in fact has no choice in the matter.
Think of a conventional calculator. This calculator is programmed to accurately calculate mathematical equations; that's its purpose. Now, give the calculator the illusion that it can choose. When you ask it to calculate "2+2", it will think its choosing "4" as the answer. However, we all know that it would've come up with "4" no matter what. Its purpose overrides its choice, and its choice follows its purpose.
• Jul 13 2003 • 10:22PM
I don't know if anyone has posted this before.. I read the other longer thread in different sections so I likely missed some posts..
anyways during "World Record" in the Animatrix DVD when the Runner is talking to his friend (that uses his hands way too much when he's talking) he starts a stopwatch and it stops it at the interval that is labeled 39 in red, but can also be interpreted at being a 9 in conjunction with the other black numbers..
I have no idea what this relates to.. but since it's in pretty plain sight I'm assuming this is just one of those things I can't seem to make a connection to.. either way, let me hear your thoughts.
• Jul 14 2003 • 6:21AM
Hi y'all,
just a reminder. Anyone who will watch reloaded (again) should pay close attention to the graffiti during the Oracle's talk and the Burly Brawl. There are much clues inside it.
As mentioned before "One" disappears when Smith comes. At the door where the Oracle has left, there was graffiti of "Boy" or "The boy" it went all pretty fast.
Oh, and now I think of it. I once read the the Wachowskis have an interest in quantumphysics too. So there must be some hints on that one, I believe.(I hope)
• Jul 14 2003 • 8:13AM
Brisvegas says: I yhink you are wrong about the matrix code at the start of the film being a representation of a digger....
If you compare the beginning of the film where you see the spiralling effect represented in matrix code, with the spiralling digger near the end of the film heading through molten; you will see they are the same. Also the inner workings of the clock (it is an electrical clock remember) is in fact zion in computer code.
• Jul 14 2003 • 8:41AM
gez says:
What do you all think the Oracle means when she says "you didn't come here to make a choice, you've already made it, you came here to try and understand why you made it." ??
Is she suggesting that Neo has done all this before?
it is all to do with the inevitable outcome that neo will save trinity, everything is contrived so that trinity is in danger; from within the matrix and zion as i eluded to on a previous thread. Remeber everything in the matrix is controlled to gently nudge neo to the source. The council sent 2 ships without explanation to locke, to find and help morpheous and co. if one of them ships werent destroyed trinity would never of entered to matrix. Remember neo is having visions of trinity's possible death when he is in zion, The architect is feeding neo with these images when neo is sleeps in the supposed real world. You see trinity falling on the architects screens before neo goes to save her, so neo see's at least three play back's of trinity's near death experiance, before he actually save her. How would the architect have a play back of trinity if he did'nt create the situation. Neo is not psychis in zion either, its because he is still hooked up in zion to the matrix.
Every ones/thing purpose is to have an influenec on neo to differing degree's in order to fullfill his purpose. the oracle has her agenda so she wants to guide neo to the architect as it is for the good of the matrix if neo reaches the source. As in m1 neo's primary goal it would seem was to destroy the matrix (we thought the oracle was human), now in m2 the oracle as well as other prorams wants to survive as the oracle knows that this time the system wont be rebooted as smith could destroy everything. (this never happened in previous versions). So the oracle is manipulating neo has she has her own agenda, her agenda being self preservation and hopefully as the oracle alude's to peacefull co existance with humans in the matrix. On that bases oracle was deludeing morpheous from day one as it served her purpose.
• Jul 14 2003 • 9:00AM
Siddarta Gouthama says:
As mentioned before "One" disappears when Smith comes. At the door where the Oracle has left, there was graffiti of "Boy" or "The boy" it went all pretty fast.
Oh, and now I think of it. I once read the the Wachowskis have an interest in quantumphysics too.
The 'boy' could be popper, all graphitti is the matrix's voice so to speak, perhaps it is refer's to an increase in substantiation cases.
with regards to quatum physics: you could view the matrix as a blackhole or in fact the universe, one theory is that everything in the universe has happened, the universe was created and now has already imploded, or exspanded to the point there is not enough matter etc. any way, as i said every thing has happend, though to us it has'nt happened yet because of the way we percieve time and because we are stuck in this universe in this reality/dimension. The same could be said of the matrix/zion those inside are asleep living out there fantasy lives but to those on the outside an entire lifetime in matrix could seem inconsequential and last a matter of minutes in the real world. So those on the outside (machines) watching enter at select moments to make adjustments. It is also a possibility that when neo meets the architect that they are out of time, in relation to the matrix, or the matrix is paused, whatever.
oh, and smith and the agents are also holders of the keys, trinity/ morpheous mentions this to neo in m1.
• Jul 14 2003 • 9:07AM
Oh, something very important I forgot to add.
Counselor Hamman said during his talk with Neo that he has slept the first 11 years of his life...
To me this means that he wasn't part of the 23 chosen people from the MAtriX. I interpret the words of the Architect literally. "You will be required to choose from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 women 7 men." This is not children !!!
If zion were real and not matrix (reasoning for this can be found here) then...
The counsel board seems very suspcicious to me. Maybe they know most of the One's path and maybe they're all machines (machines can look like human, take a look at second renaissance part1 where the ladybot is destroyed). Maybe, the old woman in the counsil can be considered as mother of the matrix. She wants 2 ships to be sent to the Neb's crew (as if she knows that they'll require 2 ships).
hell... my mind is all screwed up (again).
• Jul 14 2003 • 9:12AM
Bell said:
It is also a possibility that when neo meets the architect that they are out of time, in relation to the matrix, or the matrix is paused, whatever.
right, remember that you see Trin falling on the Archtitect's screens, whereas this hasn't happened yet.
Suppose that the love story happens for the first time, hence hasn't happened before with the other ONes, then by exiting the Architect's room, Neo might go back into time a little bit (???)and rescue her.
• Jul 14 2003 • 9:26AM
gez says:
Where does Trinity get those guns from, just before she leaps out the window?
she may have picked the guns of the floor, remember there are a few of her dead chums from zion scattered about the place in the control room she enter's
• Jul 14 2003 • 9:40AM
Siddarta Gouthama says:
Oh, something very important I forgot to add.
Counselor Hamman said during his talk with Neo that he has slept the first 11 years of his life...
To me this means that he wasn't part of the 23 chosen people from the MAtriX.
I dont agree, the 11 years hammand refers to could be the last 11 years of the previous matrix, and being one of the 23, hammand was 11 years old when he was put into zion. Remember in m1 morpheous states that most freed people from the matrix (moved to zion) are done so at and early age. all the council look 50 to 60 ish in age. hammand was 11, neo is about 40 (well keano is) the figures match up. Remember this version of the matrix is as old as neo, the architect says the one is the beggining and end of each version.
• Jul 14 2003 • 10:12AM
just read the possible m3 plot again, and the 3 lines in the black desert dream neo has as got be thinking. in psychology it could be percieved as a key or a lock, an image that opens a pandora's box to a forgotten reality or identity.
i was thinking, is neo suffering from memory loss, amnesia and in turn is slowly remembering who he is and who he has been all the time. maybe neo was the one in all previous versions of the matrix. the one/carrier could have been used in each version of the matrix to carry the prime program, the physicallity and design of this carrier is always the same in each version, though there are different personality traits for each carrier. As the architect creates different enviroments and scenario's which determine slight differences between the respective one's.
2).
• Jul 14 2003 • 10:13AM
bell says:
Remember this version of the matrix is as old as neo, the architect says the one is the beggining and end of each version.
ONCE AGAIN, DON'T MISINTERPERATE THAT STATMENT. The TECH SIMPLY SAID THAT "He prefers counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next". All this means is that from the time the first one reboots the matrix until the time another anomaly emerges. This very well could be directly after the matrix is reloaded, but it would make sense that there is some lag between the two events. Read the old thread for the discussion on how old the matrix is.
• Jul 14 2003 • 10:26AM
siddarta says: Neo might go back into time a little bit (???)and rescue her.
if any one is manipulating time and space it will be the architect for sure. From the architect's point of view everything has already happened, cause and effect, his discussion with neo precipitates an eventual outcome. an outcome the architect new would come to fruitition. neo says "you should hope we dont meet again", architect says" we wont", with a convincing amount of certainty i might add. From the architect point's of view everything played out with neo, as the architect new it would. There is forsight involved here for sure...
• Jul 14 2003 • 10:30AM
ghost says:Read the old thread for the discussion on how old the matrix is.
im aware of previous debate on this, but with regards to the argument regarding hamman, going backward from this matrix to the previous i think my point holds.
• Jul 14 2003 • 10:35AM
ghost says:ONCE AGAIN, DON'T MISINTERPERATE THAT STATMENT. The TECH SIMPLY SAID THAT "He prefers counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next".
the architect also states that neo/one is the beginning and the end. And i think at this point no single persons interpretation of m1/m2 can be set in stone.
• Jul 14 2003 • 12:13PM
bell says:
the architect also states that neo/one is the beginning and the end....And no single persons interpretation of m1/m2 can be set in stone.
Very true, How can you even believe anything that the programs say? But when I interpret the conversation (assuming it was all true), I get this: Neo/One TRULLY IS the beginning and the end. His purpose is to crash the system and reboot it. But that does not necessarily mean that his lifetime defines the duration of the Matrix.
The only reason I believe this is because I went threw a tedious process of creating an outline. It’s on the original thread and it shows that the amount of people living within Z10N does not match the time it would take to create them all from 23 people. If they actually did it would take something like 300-400 years even longer. So in my opinion I can't see it possible for the matrix to exist based upon Neo's lifeline (His birth and Death matching the destruction and rebooting of the matrix). More likely the matrix exists centering around the fundamental flaw, so when the flaw escalates it then creates the systemic anomaly (THE ONE). So there would actually be a staggered start before the anomaly appears: Say 200 - 300 years.
This is all assuming that Z10N is in fact the real world?
By the way what do we write for 1,000? A summary of all that was said?? I’m not posting 1,000 but I know
It’s got to be good…
• Jul 14 2003 • 2:02PM
Siddarta Gouthama says:
Oh, something very important I forgot to add. Counselor Hamman said during his talk with Neo that he has slept the first 11 years of his life...
Sounds like he was brought out of his pod @ the age of 11, which was considered optimum and presented minimum risk. Remember Morpheus apologized to Neo for bringing him out later than what they deem was safe. "We have a rule..." etc.
Counselor Hamman's name just jumped out @ me. Somebody had mentioned the relevance of Noah's story to the Matrix. Didn't Noah have a son named Ham? Man...
• Jul 14 2003 • 2:04PM
You know the real question and the important answer is Why is this movie so captivating? Why are we so urgently addicted to this story? Why do we sit here countless hours and discuss this movies twists and turns and possibilities, and love it? Why?
Could it be that first advertisement "WHAT IS THE MATRIX", asking us a subliminal question that we have to until this day strive to find the answer to? Does that sound familiar?
Or could it be that we are the people that need to be challenged? It could be that the “bad guy kills cops partner revenge story” isn’t enough mental stimulation, and this truly challenges us………?
L.O.L. to the true Matrix fans! We are the real fans right here. The people that would die for the chance to meet the creators, to ask the questions, so they could understand the total vision. The people that would if they could would stay here all day and all night and who know 2 months and 1,000 essays isn't enough. I know that’s what I am. I hope I end up like the people that put down Jedi, That’s a true fan.
Well good luck to 1,000+. I think that this is the only site with the only people that I couldn't get sick of. Keep it going…….
" The truth is out there "
• Jul 14 2003 • 3:14PM
Why is this movie so captivating? Why are we so urgently addicted to this story? Why do we sit here countless hours and discuss this movies twists and turns and possibilities, and love it? Why?
Because people like the folks in this thread have certain intellectual needs, and the Matrix satisfies these needs. It stimulates our natural appetite to explore, uncover problems, and solve them. Not everybody in the world has these munchies.
It's like Myst on plutonium.
• Jul 14 2003 • 4:39PM
"People that put down Jedi" did anybody get that? Sorry. It = for a religion....
So if that's what a star wars fan Puts Down, what does a Matrix fan do?
Another Question: The w's had the 3 movies plots planned from the start? Right?
• Jul 14 2003 • 7:22PM
The w's had the 3 movies plots planned from the start? Right?
Correct. It started out as an idea for a comic book, and then exploded into the whole shebang. They've always claimed they envisioned as a trilogy of films. They're not making this up as they go.
If you haven't done so yet, you'll want to watch the accompanying "The Matrix Revisited", which came with the most recent version of the M1 DVD last year. Killer stuff. You'll find rare interviews w/ the W's and others, much of it taped during the production of Reloaded/Revolutions. The whole project was @ its creative peak, and its captured on videotape. You'll dig.
• Jul 15 2003 • 2:50AM
GHOST
I loved your 1000 th post. Congrats on a great statement.
"Well good luck to 1,000+. I think that this is the only site with the only people that I couldn't get sick of. Keep it going……. "
I couldn't agree more...
Spoon boy said:Sounds like he was brought out of his pod @ the age of 11, which was considered optimum and presented minimum risk.
I agree, but do you think that he is part of the 23? Personally I don't believe so. But still there is something strange with the council. I disagree with Bell who stated that they 're all in their 50 to 60 years. No, it seems to me they're all around 70. And then, there is some kind of generation gap it seems.
Something is definitely going on here, but what?
Oh, you wanna read the following too (good catch Spoon Boy). Genesis 9: The sons of Noah who came out of the ark were Shem, Ham and Japheth. (Ham was the father of Canaan.) 19 These were the three sons of Noah, and from them came the people who were scattered over the earth.
So Ham(man) was indeed the Son of Noah (Neo). So if Neo or better the ONE is the Alfa and the Omega (Revelations), thus the beginning and the end, he is the One who ends and the One who begins.
Now i 've come to think of it, remember the license plate OA2003 or AO2003 : this could also mean alfa omega 2003, .... well it could mean anything I'd say.
• Jul 15 2003 • 5:41AM
Actually what I remember him saying - and I'm pretty sure it was in the game - was "I am the Alfa.. of your Omega"
The word "your' could imply Neo in which case Neo is the end.. but Smith is the start.
I dunno.. idle thoughts
• Jul 15 2003 • 5:43AM
Actually what I remember him saying - Smith that is
• Jul 15 2003 • 6:48AM
Old_Gobbo,
pretty freak'n stuff you've come up with. Great! I wonder what it means. Smith told Neo in the Burly Brawl that he understood the rules now, meaning the rules that guide the One to the path of the One. Smith thus knows that the One is the beginning and also the end. Saying that he is the alfa of Neo's Omega means to me that he is aware of the Matrix looping, but now Smith wants to start the loop in a new way, namely with him as a beginning to end everything, also the matrix itself. AI and humans will have to cooperate (if there is such a thing as humans)
• Jul 15 2003 • 10:24AM
ghost says:But when I interpret the conversation (assuming it was all true), I get this: Neo/One TRULLY IS the beginning and the end. His purpose is to crash the system and reboot it. But that does not necessarily mean that his lifetime defines the duration of the Matrix.
I fully aggree with what you say (if zion is real). I seem to have convinced my self that zion is in the matrix, and all my theories stem from that premise.
after watching m1 again, after neo and trin save morpheous one of the agents says "diploy the sentinals". if that course of action had taken place at that moment and smith did'nt pursue neo at that point and killed neo as well as be destroyed by neo, are we to assume that would have been the course of events in the previous versions. the course of events being that the sentinals where diployed ealier, neo evolved as he would do , but notably smith would remian the same, having not been destroyed by neo. therefore the cycle of version 6 would end and 7 would begin. only this time in version 6, smith was destroted by neo and this time the cycle will end and the matrix my be destroyed indefinately?
The w's had the 3 movies plots planned from the start? Right?
ive heard a horror story on the net that there is going to be a matrix 4 (i think joe peshi may return!!!). joel silver was so impressed with m2 takings he's seeing dollar signs. as none of the main cast said they'd do another, and the w's probably wont...phantom menace anyone.
Ghost says: Another question is, how AI are these machines? Terminator, Borg, Data, I really don't know.
data is a good example, though i think v'ger in star trek: the motion picture is more apt , as i mentioned on the old thread the machines purpose and the architect's why? could be to a attain quatum conscienous. to under stand the nature of reality, other dimenions, higher levels of thought and the human imagination. focusing on human imagination, everything up to now in the matrix is black and white, there are no grey area's in the design. charactors are stereo typical creations e.g. meravingian typical frenchman. the architecture is bland. The architect wants to dig deeper into the human psyche to create a more vibrant matrix, to truly reflect the hidden depth's of hummanity. perhaps this is how 0.09% will accept the program.
Saying that he is the alfa of Neo's Omega means to me that he is aware of the Matrix looping, but now Smith wants to start the loop in a new way, namely with him as a beginning to end everything
they are binary opposite's, ying and yang, id and ego. as smith states "i dont know how it happend? maybe some of you copied onto to me" (to that effect). if smith and neo were to join (though it would appear from the burley scene that both have to be willing parties) what would the outcome be. silly question, perhaps? but what if smith was in some way linked to the source, or is the source.
siddarta says: meaning the rules that guide the One to the path of the One...Smith thus knows that the One is the beginning and also the end.
i think that is an accurate observation as smith does appear in the corridor, knowing very well where neo is heading (the source).
i still believe smith's evolution is down to the architect that this is somehow part of the architects why.
siddarta says:I disagree with Bell who stated that they 're all in their 50 to 60 years.
neo's says to hamman " is that why there are not any young people on the council". this could taken as a throw away comment but i think that the w's are bringing this point up for us to make the conection with the 23. My reading of m2 (this is based on how i percieved m1, and later these interpretations were shown to be true), is that every thing in m2 should be taken as literal, and the truth of what is going on is in fact the obvious. this is especially true with regards to the programs, as it is in there nature. true reality is purpose and why, we humans get lost in materilistic needs and as a result our minds are clouded, we lose track of what is important in our lives. the humans/ or those in zion, have yet to rediscover/discover there true purpose and calling in life, neo it would appear is at a more advanced stage.
1000+ quite an achievement...
• Jul 15 2003 • 10:39AM
i mentioned that in m1 in the tunnel scene with neo/trin/switch that tank is wrong was written on the wall. above that on the wall is written Last One you see this when neo is stood up and about to get into the car.
i think the reason this serious of films is so good, is because it is intelligent to the point it demands the audience to look beneath the surface, and also the evidence is there for all to see the amount of hard work the w's have put into the matrix. to me the, matrix should be the standard, with regards to cinema, we dont need to be subjected to dumbed down crap, that serves little purpose and means very little, the same can be said of literiture and television.
• Jul 15 2003 • 11:54AM
Siddarta says:
do you think that (Hamman) is part of the 23?
Actually, I haven't accepted there even were 23, since in order for there to be 23, (the fifth) Neo would have chosen Door 1. I'm not convinced of that. I see the 23, and the rest of the Architect's conditional instructions, as components that, when combined with The One's "choice", lead to the inevitable conclusion and keep the machine running. Everything in this story is a necessary component of a single program.
For the purpose of your question, assuming there were 23, then no. Hamman couldn't be part of the 23, as that would make this current iteration of Zion no more than 70 or 80 years old.
• Jul 15 2003 • 3:00PM
Spoon Boy says:
I haven't accepted there even were 23...
Was that everyone’s first impression when they saw the film for the first time? I know I left the theater confused. I didn't believe the Tech and I believe that Neo was either physic or in another matrix. But this thread has made me question that again. So I was just wondering what everyone’s first thought was before the process of participating in this thread had altered your consciousness.
• Jul 15 2003 • 4:46PM
Oh and Spoon Boy i found your match.......
http://matrix.ugo.com/TheZionSwitchboard/
messageview.cfm?catid=31&threadid=3817
Just a little comedy, that's all.
• Jul 15 2003 • 7:57PM
Ghost says:
I was just wondering what everyone’s first thought was before the process of participating in this thread
As I left the theater the first time on May 14, what stuck with me for the evening was the spoon gift in Zion, as well as the final scene where Neo stopped the squiddies. That scene alone made my jaw drop, as it dawned on me that what we thought we had our noodles wrapped around for the past four years was not what we were dealing with anymore. First impression: Matrix-in-a-Matrix. Zion was not the real world we had thought it was, and we must therefore re-evaluate the nature of our heroes in this story. I immediately remembered Morpheus' line from M1, describing AI as "a singular consciousness that spawned an entire race of machines." The hair stood up on the back of my head as things started falling into place. I felt tricked by the W's, and loved 'em for it.
Saw it again the following night.
Over the course of the next few days, we tracked down a transcription of the Architect scene on the Net, where I could review the conversation carefully. I then found myself in this thread about a week later and the rest is history. In the making...
• Jul 16 2003 • 4:41AM
Ghost said on the 23 issue: Was that everyone’s first impression when they saw the film for the first time?
I initially believed that all previous Ones chose the right door, allthough that I was not convinced that they 'd actually done so. On the old thread I soon found out that other people (eg Spoon Boy) also believed that no One chose the right door, which could explain the calmth that the Tech put forward when Neo walked to the left.
The scenes that were burnt on my mind were "you saved yourself of the Kid", "the spoon gift", "the talk with Hamman" and of course "emp'ing the squids".
I know for sure that this thread has the potential to digg in the right direction, it's just difficult to get a nice good overview to see the whole picture.
To end, I just read something interesting: remember the criticized sex scene , where Neo and Trin' were under some kind of Arch. In medieval scriptures and drawings, everything that had divinity were placed under an arch. I love the Bro's work for putting the focus on details. Even the criticized sex scene is full of symbolism showing the divinity of Neo and Trin'.
• Jul 16 2003 • 12:52PM
Regarding the arch, and more philosophical insights, here's an outstanding article for those who missed it:
http://www.corporatemofo.com/stories/051803matrix.htm
• Jul 17 2003 • 3:28PM
Something has been bugging me for a long time... It is 6371 Kilometers to the center of the Earth. Zion is supposed to be close to the Earth's core, where it is still warm.
In Final Flight of the Osiris, it appeared that they were on the surface of the Earth, "I've never seen the surface before...". But then the captain asks what's four kilometers straight down?
??? What's going on here?
• Jul 17 2003 • 6:17PM
In Final Flight of the Osiris, it appeared that they were on the surface of the Earth, "I've never seen the surface before...". But then the captain asks what's four kilometers straight down?
I don't know how big Zion is.. but it might just be 4 miles down to the outskirts of it. Zion is never really shown (not that I can remember) but it might have a central core and then some branches and stuff. Plus with all the nukes and shit that have gone off.. the earth could be pretty different than it is today. We know that some areas of the ocean stretch down farther than we can track.. so they could be in such an area.
Now.. on to my point :)
"I killed you Mr. Anderson, with a certain amount of satisfaction I might add. But then something happened, something I knew was impossible but it happened anyways. You destroyed me Mr. Anderson" (that's from memory..but I'm pretty sure it's right)
Now.. this quote got me thinking about a couple of things
1. Trinity kisses Neo, and magically he comes back to life!
Now.. does anyone else find this somewhat odd?
Yes.. trin may love Neo, and yes.. love is powerful, but not that powerful (not in the W's world). How is it that Trin's "love" combined with some cheesy prediction by the supposed Oracle that Neo is able to come back to life?
2. If all this is just a repeating circle of events (one is born, reaches source.. Zion is destroyed/rebuilt, one is born...) then why is it Smith is trying to Kill Neo? Don't the machines -need- him?
This -could- be argued. Smith is just a program with set rules (which he later seems to break :P) and that he is unaware of the knowledge of the Architect. But then.. why would the architect allow the -possible- destruction of the one.
1 and 2 -could- be answered by the matrix in a matrix theory. Smith is suprised, he doesn't know how Neo was able to come back to life, (somehow I don't think he's buying the "Oh well Trin loves me so I must be the one, and I must be able to come back to life line, Neo was the one from birth.. Her love wasn't the deciding factor. [at least I hope not]). The only reason I see for the Architect to keep the agents in the dark about this whole thing is if it doesn't matter if he dies because he's not dead in the real REAL world.
I don't personally like the whole Matrix in a Matrix theory.. but it's all in the way the W's present it.. and to me.. it's looking more and more likely that's gonna be the case.
• Jul 18 2003 • 2:24AM
lofty adam said:It is 6371 Kilometers to the center of the Earth.
Yep, I found this strange too, and I don't think it has anything to do with all those nukes etc.
old Gombo said:then why is it Smith is trying to Kill Neo?
I agree with you, Smith as a program did not know what was going on.
You quoted the conversation, quote a little bit further than Smith is saying "I got to know the rules" meaning that after his defeat he understood that Neo was the One to reach the source. I guess AI was almost pretty pissed off by Smith having killed Neo.
His job was to chase the Zionists, giving them a hard time, so that Morph' and his gang were even more convinced that they had to get rid of that "nasty machine world and the matrix. "
Matrix within matrix seems most likely, but I still hope that the bro's have something in surprise for us.
• Jul 18 2003 • 9:46AM
Old_Gobbo says:
Her love wasn't the deciding factor
That's perfect. Everything centers around Neo and Trin's love. The reason is because the machines needed to be positive that Neo would choose the door to save her. So When Neo died and Trinity professed her love for Neo they uploaded the One program into him turning him into the Almighty. The second test was the Kiss by Persophone. She tested how strong their love was and when she was shown it was sufficient then she let them go to the Keymaker. Without making it threw that "gate" he wouldn't have made it to the Tech.
Interesting huh.......... :)
• Jul 18 2003 • 10:12AM
Ghost said:1. What particular variable made this Version turn out different then the last 5?
This variable would be the female person. It's always the women that make the difference ;-) (poor Adam when Eve offered him the apple, Cleopatra and Caesar, Renaissance Queen Elizabeth...)
Trin' is the most important variable of difference in this version of the matrix. Neo has other more specific feelings compared to the other ONes "vis à vis love".
But as the some of the hypotheses go, this wouldn't change anything of the outcome of this version, i.e. if all previous Ones also chose the left door.
I also think that this is the first version in which Merv has captured the Keymaker. Could that be?
Wait a minute, now I come to think of it... why do the Agents want to delete the Keymaker??????? The matrix needs this program for its reload, thus he isn't redundant. Assume that Agent...(forgot his name) was ignorant as Smith was in TM1 (he didn't know the rules) why would the agents chase the keymaker to delete him rather than chasing Trin' who represents a far more greater threat to the MAtrix. The agents were specifically after him and not Trin' right? If they knew the rules, they would not chase him, because Neo had to reach him. If they were ignorant, they should be after Trin. This is strange, isn't it?
I think we're onto something here... anyone?
Bytheway, are there any geologists out here who are familiar with the temperature profile of the earth crust in functon of depth. How deep would we have to go to find fairly constant temperatures of say 25°C (that's 80°F).
• Jul 18 2003 • 11:55AM
Well, well... So listen up then. Let’s say Trinity is the most important variable, and that everything centers around her. So without her Neo wouldn't be the one, he wouldn't have gone to the tech, and wouldn't have took the door he did. Then she would have to be a vital part of the system of control designed by the machines.
This goes back to a question I asked the thread on 06/05/2003. "How would the Oracle (a machine) know that Trinity (a freed mind human) and Neo would fall in love?"
The Oracle told Trin she would fall in love with a dead man and he would be the One. So she knew Neo would die and become the One and They Would Fall In Love.
But the part that's soo “noodle baking” is all of the other Ones experienced their profound attachment to the rest of their species in a very general way, Neo's experience is far more specific: Vis-a-vis, love. So the LOVE part has not happened before! Also the machines cannot understand or predict human emotion!?!
So how could the Oracle predict it!!!!!
One possible explanation is that Trin is actually a machine. Well not a machine but a computer program uploaded into a human Mind. Besides that explanation I cannot figure how the Oracle would know that They would fall in love….. So if anyone has any idea. Please enlighten me.
• Jul 18 2003 • 1:06PM
Siddarta says:
Bytheway, are there any geologists out here who are familiar with the temperature profile of the earth crust in functon of depth. How deep would we have to go to find fairly constant temperatures of say 25°C (that's 80°F).
We know from mines and drill holes near the earth's surface that the temperature increases about 1 degree Fahrenheit for every 60 feet in depth. There is no "constant" temperature you reach and stabilize @ on your way down; it continually gets hotter the deeper you go. As an estimate, assuming that the surface is a comfortable, say, 68 degrees F, we can say that the temperature would reach 80 degrees somewhere around 720 feet down. The colder it is on the surface, the deeper you'd have to go to reach 80 degrees.
More info:
http://newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/gen99/gen99256.htm
why do the Agents want to delete the Keymaker???????
hmm...were the Agents after the Keymaker for their own independent reasons? Or were they working for Merv, as the Twins were? Remember, it was Merv who wanted to recapture the freed Keymaker.
• Jul 18 2003 • 4:11PM
Just thought of something..
The machines, (as we would be lead to believe) drill down to Zion every cycle to destroy it... so does this mean after they're done they refill the holes that they made on their way up? And if that is so.. wouldn't someone stop and look at the giant hole of recently disturbed earth and say "Hey guys.. what's all this about?"
Things don't add up here at all.. in the "real" world.
• Jul 18 2003 • 5:29PM
The reason is because this is how people think in Z10N:
Councilor Hamann: "Almost no one comes down here, unless, of course, there's a problem. That's how it is with people - nobody cares how it works as long as it works."
"There is so much in this world that I do not understand. See that machine? It has something to do with recycling our water supply. I have absolutely no idea how it works."
I hope that answers you question. But I think you’re somewhat right. Lets say the Tech saw Neo as a powerful force and the machines tried to side with him. They used the fact that the squids were digging to reinforce the lie that Z10N will fall, and that it has before. All this to trick Neo to side with them for some twisted machine mind probe experiment with needles, electrodes, and stuff! .....? Uhhh.... Well mabey I got carried away. Can't wait to see the next Movie.
• Jul 18 2003 • 5:32PM
Also the majority of us don't believe that Z10N is real anyway. If it was another Matrix there would be no hole. And the rest of us believe the Tech lied so then no hole was ever made.
• Jul 19 2003 • 10:29PM
very interesting stuff ;D Got a question though. It's about simulated damage vs real life damage . If you enter the matrix and broke your arm for example or got another bone fracture INSIDE the matrix , do u still have a broken arm when u plug out? I mean , your brain cannot make your bone crack just because it thinks your arm is broke, it can only simulate the pain but still .. no bone fracture .... right?
• Jul 20 2003 • 2:13AM
Can someone tell me the inportance of 37/9 in "world record".
The runner's friend stops a stopwatch at what could either be a 37 or a 9.
• Jul 21 2003 • 12:30AM
Sajjmaan says:
If you enter the matrix and broke your arm for example or got another bone fracture INSIDE the matrix , do u still have a broken arm when u plug out? I mean , your brain cannot make your bone crack just because it thinks your arm is broke, it can only simulate the pain but still .. no bone fracture .... right?
Great question. Hypothetically speaking, you're correct; your brain cannot inflict physical damage on your bone. This presents a problem until you realize that there is no bone.
Yet another example of why a physical world doesn't fit into this story.
Old_Gobbo says:
Can someone tell me the inportance of 37/9 in "world record".
Ah, more numbers. Cool. First thing that occurs to me is that 37 is prime, while 9 is square. I'll need to roll that one around. Numerologists out there? Please enlighten.
• Jul 21 2003 • 1:17PM
Spoon boy ; how would the brain react if it sends impulses of pain to a " broken arm" but then when plugged out sees that the arm is intacs ? Or do you have to lay on those tables and heal yourself because it doesnt matter if the arm is broken or not since the brain is superior to flesh and bones ? :)
what the fuck ;( If so isnt it impossible to get REALLY hurt in the matrix? Morpheus said something about this stuff in the first movie... Something along the lines that u ocassionaly get nosebleed after inflicted damage inside the matrix but nothing more?
• Jul 21 2003 • 8:55PM
Sajjman says:
isnt it impossible to get REALLY hurt in the matrix?
In my opinion, yes. Impossible. In order to get REALLY hurt, you need a REAL body in the REAL world. I don't believe there's either, for countless reasons.
Check out the archived thread. We talked a lot about this.
• Jul 22 2003 • 9:31AM
WOULDN'T IT BE POSSIBLE FOR THE NUERO TRANSMITTERS TO GET OVERLOADED AND THEN NOT WORK IN THE REAL WORLD? SAY IF IN THE MATRIX THE INDIVIDUAL GOT A BROKEN BONE IN THE MATRIX. ??????????????
• Jul 22 2003 • 12:53PM
hmmm just came up with something that might be a glint towards "matrix withing a matrix" - theory that manifested itself in the first movie ;D
ehum..... might not be buuuut :
The only "freeing" of a captured mind that we are able to observe is the one of neo right ? They start with the process withing the matrix (red pill blablalbalbla..... but when neo is released from his pod a machine grabs him , scans him and then throws him down in something that looks like a sewer system(well skip the details it was a long time ago i saw the movie so stfu :P) and then he "wakes up" .. what i'm thinking of his , what kind of a robot deliberatley grabs a human up , scans him and then releases him ? Unless it IS HIS JOB TO RELEASE (0.01 % or 1 % of) HUMANS ? I dont know if im getting this shit all wrong but have they ever questions themselves why the fuck the machine does that or is the machine under the influence of the humans ?
might be something , might not ;D
P.S Is it impossible that neo's coma is a product of "self-substination" (or whatever its called) ? u know .. self awakening.... When kid in kids story (animatrix) self substinate himself he had to lie down on a table and vitalize his status while neo and trin is watching him , what if neo just selfawoke himself from the "real world" ? Trin said something along the lines that "how does he know, its like he senses it" when talking to neo about Kid, Kid might have got some kind of special sense when he woke himself up from the orignal matrix, but the powers that can be unlocked by selfawakening from the "zion matrix" is possible far greater.
D.S long P.S :D
• Jul 22 2003 • 1:18PM
Sajjman says:
what kind of a robot deliberatley grabs a human up , scans him and then releases him ? Unless it IS HIS JOB TO RELEASE (0.01 % or 1 % of) HUMANS ?
The "robot" you speak of is a recycling mechanism, tossing the awakened (and no longer useable) pod bodies into the sewer system to be liquified and fed intraveinously to the unawakened. It's not releasing the .1% from the Matrix, but recycling the released.
• Jul 22 2003 • 1:24PM
Are you sure spoon boy ? You're probably right thou ;D
but u havent answered my other thingie ;P go ahead and read, waiting for an fairly good answer from you.
• Jul 22 2003 • 1:30PM
Just to clarify the robot is actually what you see when you die. I believe that when a person in the matrix dies they wake up on the other side expecting to see god. Instead they see the scanning machine that flushes them down the toilet.
Off the point but my favorite part of the first movie is that Neo after his "Death", was flushed and then he saw the light. Actually three lights. Could this be he was raised up into the heavens by the father, son, and holy ghost (The Trinity). Then the Gates of Salvation (Neb) opened up for him. Cool huh.
• Jul 22 2003 • 1:49PM
Sajjman,
Not sure what answer you're looking for. You seem to be asking about the "robot"'s intentions. There are no intentions. It's just doing what it does. Think of it as a gardener tending the field of bodies and pulling weeds. Nothing more.
• Jul 22 2003 • 1:56PM
Spoon Boy,
I just didnt know that the mechanism grabbing the people unplugged threw the body down so it could be recycled , that answered the whole thing about that. But is that person that is unplugged considered dead to the machine or does the machine just throw it down the sewere thingie anyway ?
READ THE OTHER THING NOW ;PPPP
• Jul 22 2003 • 3:00PM
Sajjman says:
But is that person that is unplugged considered dead to the machine or does the machine just throw it down the sewere thingie anyway ?
The unplugged person (used as a battery) becomes worthless to the mainframe, and therefore discarded. Think of the unplugged person as a broken dish, a dead battery in your remote control, or a cigarette lighter out of juice. Death isn't something that even really crosses your mind with these items; they're just pieces of garbage to you.
• Jul 22 2003 • 3:31PM
Yep that whole spider robot scene reminded me of a conveyor line of food processing or something and him picking the bad ones out and tossing them down the chute. I'm pretty sure that's what it was meant to show. The billions of people that are hooked up can't all work perfectly. I'm sure there are thousands of them discarded like that you weren't being shown.
• Jul 23 2003 • 4:14AM
Guys if you want details on the films, I'd check back in with the main matrix site. whatisthematrix.com. I hadn't been there in awhile and am going through everything now because I'm obsessed like that. I noticed quicktime VR's of the rooms in Reloaded. Hamanns room shows his collectable antiques, like a can opener, an abacas, and a pacifier... neat! Also , you can look around the council chamber.. Anyway lots of material on the site if you can get around that unfriendly navigation.
• Jul 23 2003 • 10:08AM
ctm3 says:
Yep that whole spider robot scene reminded me of a conveyor line of food processing or something and him picking the bad ones out and tossing them down the chute.
having read the debate regarding the chute robot, i think you are all missing the most vital point, that the architect being aware of the one/neo since his emergance, knows neo's has been freed (or moved to another part of the matrix) and on that basis it is likely that the robot recognised neo/one (with instruction from the architect) and released him. note that in 'world record' when the main protaganist almost substantiates the robot does not free him in the same way but reconnects him to the matrix. if neo werent the one, would he have been reconnected in the same manner and exist in the matrix as a guy in a wheel chair crippled, and unable to communicate? (and that is baring in mind that previous to neo being freed, he did not fluctuate between matrix and field of pods.)
spoonboy says:
In my opinion, yes. Impossible. In order to get REALLY hurt, you need a REAL body in the REAL world. I don't believe there's either, for countless reasons.
if you did break your leg or or damage your central nervous system in the matrix, it is fair to say that though the bone is not broken, if the mind believes it to be broken all nerv impulses could cease and that leg will have no motor function even though it is not broken, perhaps on the neb neo and co would have a recuperation program booted up for them to enter, in order to allow the mind to realise that the leg is not broken.
Can someone tell me the inportance of 37/9 in "world record".
The runner's friend stops a stopwatch at what could either be a 37 or a 9.
my reading of world record is that the friend of the runner is a program or has for knowledge of what the runner is attempting and is aware of the outcome and trying to talk him out of running. 37?
spoonboy says:
hmm...were the Agents after the Keymaker for their own independent reasons? Or were they working for Merv, as the Twins were? Remember, it was Merv who wanted to recapture the freed Keymaker.
one would assume that the agents parole and police the matrix, they are functional. like local police they are not part of the politics and decision making of the matrix, they simply do there job. one would assume that the architect allows the agents to pursue trin and morph otherwise they may think that there escape with the keymaker was to easy and trin and morph may smell a rat. obviously the architect has an idea of how things will pan out with regards to the highway chase, as he is manipulating every thing up to this point. the architect knows neo will save morph and the keymaker. on that basis the outcome to the chase was always going to be the same as it was the keymakers function to fullfill his role of leading neo to the architect and nothing was going to stop that from happening, so on that basis the keymaker was never going to be destroyed untill he fullfilled his role. (as we see once his role is fullfilled smith kills him, the keymaker says to neo, 'it was meant to be').
• Jul 23 2003 • 10:20AM
when trin kisses neo in m1, and neo reawakens, this scene is more about trin than it is about neo. neo will rise anyway, he is the one after all. trin has been told by the oracle that she will fall in love with the one. trin having a great deal of faith in the oracle and morpheus's beliefs buy's into what the oracle tell's her((not forgotting that the oracle has her own agenda, and to be honest if the oracle told me my fate i would view this with caution (one would assume that as she grew up in the mature she was nutured by the system so she would fullfill this role)). Anyway trin believes so much that she will fall in love with the one, it becomes a self fullfilling prophacy (that architect is a smart cookie, almost as smart as me!)
the kiss scene in m1 is a seed of many that the architect has planted, that comes to fruition in m2 when neo chooses to save trin.
• Jul 23 2003 • 10:32AM
ghost says:
One possible explanation is that Trin is actually a machine. Well not a machine but a computer program uploaded into a human Mind. Besides that explanation I cannot figure how the Oracle would know that They would fall in love….. So if anyone has any idea. Please enlighten me.
The oracle does not know that trin will fall in love with neo she is telling trin she will fall in love with neo. The oracle is a confidence trixter, many sure/strong minded people manipulate the lost/weak minded people every day. it is a sure bet that the oracle could spin any old yarn to morpheus and he would buy into it. (remember morpheus still does not know that the oracle is a program, at the fundamental level the oracle deceived morpheus, regading her true nature, surely that undermines everything she has told morpheus.)
• Jul 23 2003 • 10:52AM
check out new matrix revolution picks at this site: http://keanuweb.com/multimedia/display_kr3ad693.html
wow!
• Jul 23 2003 • 11:02AM
check this web page out, excellent revolutions pics: http://keanuweb.com/credits/movie.matrix3.stills.html
The Oracle (played by an actress named Mary Alice, due to Gloria Foster's death; I assume this means that Mary Alice will play the Oracle in Revolutions, as well) states that a "special child" who will "change the world" is the child of two programs similar to herself. If she means Neo, this would suggest that Neo is a program and thus that Zion is still part of the Matrix. The Oracle says the two programs betrayed her for their love by giving Merovingian (the French information-collector guy, played by Lambert Wilson) her termination key. The Oracle allowed this because she wanted the programs to have their special child.
A hobo with longish blond hair who also appears in the Revolutions trailer has a conversation with Niobe (Jada Pinket-Smith) in which he reveals that the Zion before this one "only lasted 72 hours". Niobe volunteered to be the second ship to enter the Matrix and contact the Nebuchadnezzar because her boyfriend, Command Lock revealed to her that he had arranged for her ship, the Logos, to be the only one not to participate in the defense of Zion, in order to protect her, and she was angry. At the end of the events of Reloaded, Niobi and Ghost's hovercraft (Logos) has crashed in an uncharted underground area and they do not know how they will be found and rescued".
• Jul 24 2003 • 8:13AM
This is what will happen at the end (lol)
"I predict that Matrix Revolutions will be 150 minutes long. By minute 140, things will be so convoluted and confusing that we'll have met the Mother of the Brother of the Architect's Father's Architect. By minute 142, Neo will look more Confused and Holy than ever. From minutes 142:00 to 149:50, Neo and 1,000,000,000 Agent Smiths will punch each other in the face, in the rain, Hockey Style. From minute 149:51 to 150:00, Andy and Larry Wachowski will appear mid-fight, look at the camera, and say "We fucking give up, too!" and cheerfully give us the middle finger.
Cue Rage Against The Machine"
anyone who can do better ?
• Jul 24 2003 • 10:59AM
Siddarta Gouthama says:
This is what will happen at the end (lol)
"I predict that Matrix Revolutions will be 150 minutes long.
it is safe to say that revolutions will throw us a curve ball much like reloaded did. after watching m1 we thought we knew what the matrix was. we watch m2, we didnt know what the matrix was. now after much debate we think we have an idea what its all about. but it would not supprise me if we way of the mark. as you say Zen master siddarta, their will be so much fresh data to take ion it could go any where, and will no doubt. have you seen the pic's of m3 yet pretty good, i would not be supprissed if sentinals started chasing neo and co in the matrix...
• Jul 24 2003 • 11:12AM
Yep, I've seen them and I can't wait till November to see the whole show.
As you say, making a distillation of the Kottke threads will bring up constructive ideas of what we have been watching and discussing all the time. But the bro's can bring in so many new elements.
Hey let them to their thing, and let us just enjoy watching it and philosophizing over it. It keeps challenging our minds...
• Jul 24 2003 • 11:38AM
good news matrix reloaded comes out 3 weeks before revolutions hits the cinema, though i doubt the w's will add a commentary just yet (the w's probably have not deciphered reloaded yet!!!!!).
not sure if this thread will last untill revolutions is released? i think the water hole is almost dried up.
for any one who looked at the new m3 pic's, the pic with smith is alarming, it is safe to assume the power he has attained at this point has driven him 'joker style' insane...
• Jul 24 2003 • 11:40AM
good news matrix reloaded comes out 3 weeks before revolutions hits the cinema, though i doubt the w's will add a commentary just yet (the w's probably have not deciphered reloaded yet!!!!!).
not sure if this thread will last untill revolutions is released? i think the water hole is almost dried up.
for any one who looked at the new m3 pic's, the pic with smith is alarming, it is safe to assume the power he has attained at this point has driven him 'joker style' insane...
• Jul 24 2003 • 12:10PM
Oracle in Revolutions, as well) states that a "special child" who will "change the world" is the child of two programs similar to herself
the child must be neo! though who are the parents of the child?
i think the parents are either:
1) the architect and persophone (zeus/persophone/hades triangle, would this make neo hercules/herakles? - half human/half god - half human/half machine?
2) the architect and trinity (think oedipus) which for many reasons i think this would be the most interesting and challenging, and could elevate matrix trilogy even further.
3) merv and persophone (very doubtfull) as merv is the one who decieved the oracle to allow the happy couple of programs to have the child. and steal the oracles termination key in the process.
• Jul 24 2003 • 4:33PM
"An intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the Matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother."
Hmmm...... Father, Mother? Could that meen somthing?
• Jul 24 2003 • 11:19PM
hmmm 12 chairs in the first council chamber ..... any points on the number ? This has been discussed before but now we know for sure .... how many "were" the diciples ? :)
• Jul 25 2003 • 2:41AM
I think indeed that this thread will have ended before "revolutions" hits us. The only thing that I would like to see happen is a list of facts that we now for sure, a list of links and references to all kinds of religions and human philosophical visions, a list of things we don't know yet or that we not fully understand yet. And for the latter, a list of the different hyptoheses that are currently running (goofy or not). In a couple of posts we would than have a nice overview of everything and, to my mind, one of the better insights and analyses on these 2 Matrix films, that are available on the web.
Sajjman, Jesus Christ had 12 disciples, indeed. The 2 matrix films have tons of hidden links to religions, life perspectives, philosophy etc.
• Jul 25 2003 • 6:09AM
Thought I'd throw this out...
I'm getting married this weekend :), and part of the Jewish ceremony includes the Seven Brachot (Wedding Blessings). During the rehearsal, one of the blessings struck me:
"May the barren (land) rejoice and be glad when its children are gathered back to it in joy. Blessed art thou, Lord our God, who makes Zion rejoice in her children."
• Jul 25 2003 • 4:46PM
Lofty..
The Matrix clearly has you now. :-D
• Jul 25 2003 • 7:51PM
It's only a matter of time before Lofty'll be thinking to himself:
Why didn't I take the BLUE pill? :)
• Jul 27 2003 • 9:54PM
If you're skeptical of Persephone actually being the mother of the matrix, analyze what I've come up with and judge for yourself (If someone else mentioned this, sorry, I just saw Reloaded):
Persephone longs for 'love.' In her dialogue to Neo, she says, "You love her, she loves you. A long time ago I knew what that felt like. I want to sample it."
Later, the architect describes the mother of the matrix as, "an intuitive program," with a "lesser mind."
What ties this altogether is a definition from the first film; the Oracle defines being in love: "Being the One is just like being in love, no one can tell you that you're in love, 'you just know it.' " That also happens to be the definition of 'Intuition,' 'the power of attaining to direct knowledge without evident rational thought.' Emotion, such as love, obviously does not require rational thought and is seen by the Architect as an attribute of a 'lesser' mind.
Damn I love this movie.
For those that believe that Trinity is the mother, you may be right, remember, the Oracle does mention that newer programs are written to replace older ones. Trinity may very well be the sixth version of the role, but rather than sampling all humans to change the Matrix, she only samples Neo, which could possibly be the reason behind Neo's superpowers. Persephone's kiss may be the reason behind Neo's division between mind and body....
Cheers!
Chazdor
• Jul 28 2003 • 9:16AM
lofty says:
Lord our God, who makes Zion rejoice in her children."
zion is smack bang in the middle east (iraq i think). zion also happens to be where 01 is in the second renaissance animatrix. congrats to u and wife.
siddarta says:
a list of links and references to all kinds of religions and human philosophical visions
will draw up themes and perspectives of m2, though may take some time! (its like being back at uni!)
chazdor says:
Persephone longs for 'love.' In her dialogue to Neo, she says, "You love her, she loves you. A long time ago I knew what that felt like. I want to sample it."
i think at this point persophone is testing the bond between neo and trinity, when she kisses neo. (i think persophone could well be the mother, though i thimk it would make for a greater tragedy if trinity was). persophone is testing how strong the bond is, will neo die for trin/will neo choose the left door in order to save trin instead of the right door and reset the matrix. as ive said before on this thread, this is important information for the architect, as version 6's destiny and fate if you will depends on neo's bond with trinity. Trinity is neo's achillies heal, with regards to the architect manipulating neo.
• Jul 28 2003 • 10:12AM
sajjman says:
hmmm 12 chairs in the first council chamber ..... any points on the number ?
im still not convinced that the council members are not the 23. i have seen m2 a fair few times and here are one or two points that niggle me:
1). all the council are of a certain age. (all the same age/generation)
2). we never have one conclusive shot of the table that the council members are sat. a) do we only see half the table b). who is to say there arent 23 sat at the table. (the w's could be teasing us with the possibility that the 23 are the council but hold back just enough to not make that assumption stick).
3). if there arent 23 at the table, who is to say those sat at the table arent still part of the 23.
...one other thing, when neo rescues the key maker from merv, the keymakers first words to neo are 'ive been expecting you', even though the keymaker is captive, he know's that he was meant to be a prisoner of merv, in order to be rescued at that point and that place. i assume that the architect once again had created this situation.
• Jul 28 2003 • 10:13AM
I found this discussion just today,
A question to you before i join it: Do you want to predict Revolutions or do you want to explain what the Matrix is?
1. case, we would have to find errors (Links "Superman") and figure out how the rest would end into a spectacular finale.
2. case, we can discuss until Revolutions how Link got knowledge of Superman (perhaps some exiles told him?)
Quick: I don't believe in the Matrix-in-the-Matrix-stuff, it would be too obvious for the story. Smith is just a buggy program in my eyes. I have no personal solution for the Mother.
• Jul 28 2003 • 11:21AM
beza1e1 says:
I found this discussion just today,
A question to you before i join it: Do you want to predict Revolutions or do you want to explain what the Matrix is?
both, as only by understanding the nature of the mature can any predictions take place.
though i predict that m3 will be as enlightening as m2 was. in that we only know half the story. i belief neo is in a coma due to the fact he is re-tuning if you like to zion, because of his continued development and after his meeting with the architect, neo will realise that zion is part of the matrix. The coma could be a result of information overload/evolutionary jump whatever.
• Jul 28 2003 • 11:26AM
beza1e1 says:
2. case, we can discuss until Revolutions how Link got knowledge of Superman (perhaps some exiles told him?)
earlier on this thread we discussed the superman comment that link make's. if you read this thread (1130 post's, ypu would be hard pushed to read all of them, you will get the general gist of the ongoing discussions.
• Jul 28 2003 • 11:54AM
• Jul 28 2003 • 12:23PM
even better pics and quick time trailer of m3 for those who have not finished 'enter the matrix yet' the look of the film is more m1 than m2, as a fan of film noir, it looks great... http://home.accglobal.net/~707727/video/
matrixrevolutions.mpeg
• Jul 28 2003 • 1:39PM
I read this thread (without the 931 before) as a whole.
Some thoughts about Smith:
I see him as a program running amok, like Merv, the Twins, etc., which are not longer under control of the Matrix (Architect). No wonder if you think in strong logical ways. Your job is to kill the One. You do it (m1). He kills you. Now you fullfilled your job and you failed at the same time! No wonder a program freaks out.
He may be an important key to fight the Matrix. The Architect watches for anomalies, like Neo and studies them. Then he extinguishs the problems and reloads the Matrix with an update, which fixes this anomalies.
As time goes by only the stronger anomalies are undetected by the more and more perfect Matrix. This explains why Zion lived longer each timespan. But there come more and more amok programs like the Merv and Smith (Smith is really dangerous because he overtakes more and more parts of the Matrix, like a virus/worm).
Do you remember Jurassic Park and its chaos theories. Minor changes can cause huge fluctuations and these get bigger each iteration until the whole system/Matrix becomes just chaos. Anarchy and (you guess it:) Revolution!
These are my thoughts. Some fresh ideas in here ;)
• Jul 28 2003 • 2:16PM
bell says:
im still not convinced that the council members are not the 23.
who is to say those sat at the table arent still part of the 23.
If you believe that the council members are of the "original" 23, then you must also believe that the fifth Neo chose Door 1. You also must believe that by doing this, he:
1. Reloaded the Matrix, exterminating the (fifth) population of Zion.
2. Selectively pulled 23 pod bodies out of the Matrix in order to repopulate Zion.
We know from M2 that there are approximately 250,000 people in Zion @ this point. To believe that the council members are of the original 23 forefathers of the sixth iteration, you must believe that they're a couple thousand years old. You must also believe that the 23 members have witnessed, with their own eyes, two different iterations of Neo; the fifth Neo who originally rescued them, and the sixth Neo that Morpheus' team pulled out.
>>
Some thoughts about Smith:
I see him as a program running amok, like Merv, the Twins, etc., which are not longer under control of the Matrix
Exactly. An intelligent program independently running amok. Like Merv, the Twins, Neo, Morpheus, Trinity, Cypher, Tank, Du Jour, the squids, and so on.
"A.I.: A singular consciousness that spawned an entire race of machines."
It astounds me that so many people aren't finding this obvious by now.
• Jul 28 2003 • 2:39PM
"2). we never have one conclusive shot of the table that the council members are sat."
If you look at the quicktime VR's of the chamber, you can see the exact number of chairs they used for the shot.
Smith sure looks different in that scene of him laughing. In fact I didn't think it was him when I first saw the M3 trailer. Perhaps it was just because he never laughs.
• Jul 29 2003 • 4:10AM
What is the general opinion of this thread about how Neo stopped the sentinels
• Jul 29 2003 • 11:18AM
Alien says:
What is the general opinion of this thread about how Neo stopped the sentinels
Some folks feel Neo's "powers" have become so robust that they've extended beyond the Matrix into the "real world", and that he how has "superphysical" powers.
Others have connected it to the fact that the EMP was activated "too early", as described in the last couple scenes of M2. People go a couple ways with this; some feel Neo is the one who *activated* the EMP, while others suspect he (being a program) may have been *affected* by it and is consequently in a "coma" because of it.
The people who lean towards one of the variations of the "Matrix-in-a-Matrix" suspect that the "real world" is not what we thought it was, and therefore there are no "real sentinels" to stop. They find this scene a strong indication that Neo is still in some sort of simulated reality, and has never really left.
Most people, including those in the above three groups, correctly admit that they don't know for sure.
• Jul 29 2003 • 12:14PM
Just a couple of quick thoughts here:
I read the entire thread... wow, amazing stuff you guys put forth. I guess I should pay closer attention to movies because I didn't see 90% of the stuff you all have pointed out over the course a couple months. However, I've only seen the movie once :-).
Personally, I'd be disappointed if M3 ended with Neo waking up at his computer screening and then realizing his apartement # was 110. No amount of clever binary code would make me happy if this were the case.
One point I'd like to bring up is that in the video game Enter the Matrix, Persephone demands a kiss from Ghost just in the way she demanded a kiss from Neo. Presumably she also demands a kiss from Niobe (might have to play just to see that... Monica Bellucci is a goddess, anyone seen the movie "Malena"?). With Persephone demanding kisses from people besides Neo, does that change her theororized role in the trilogy?
• Jul 29 2003 • 12:48PM
I think that because this matrix is dependent on the human emotion love, the programs in it (like Persephone) may be fascinated by it. She could be an information-gathering program that is testing the emotion to further the machines understanding. This was discussed in the old thread with the theory of the machines needing agency if I remember correct. It still remains one of the more interesting theories I’ve heard. The machines truly don't understand emotion and how it controls human thought and decision making. It posses a problem to them and they must understand it. Just like the Terminator talking to John Connor about why we cry. Or like Data trying to figure out why people make the decisions they do based on it.
• Jul 29 2003 • 1:20PM
I agree, Persephones motive seems to be information gathering. But for whom? She "belongs" to the Merovingian, so she may be a wild program like he is or she is a kind of agent for the Matrix, what gives room for much more conspiracy theories...
For those who watched the movies several times yet. The EMP at the end, does it come from Neo, from any direction or was it just there suddenly?
I am not content with a superpower Neo in the rael world neither with a matrix-in-the-matrix. Perhaps another ship or person has just arrived and made the EMP?
btw what happend to Niobe at the end? Her ship got blasted and she died? My memories leave me in this point. Is the dialog between Niobe and (?) in the revolutions trailer (at start and end) from the movie or just a gimmick?
• Jul 29 2003 • 1:32PM
One theory that was not mentioned is that the Tech made an alternative reality just for Neo because he took the wrong door. He could have uploaded the program to fool Neo into believing whatever the Tech would like to input.......??? Not very likely but it is still just like the MwM theory - except the new matrix is one that just Neo is in, alone.
• Jul 29 2003 • 1:36PM
That just goes to show that the W's have stranded us on a deserted island. The possibilities are endless as to what direction they will go now. And it's eating me alive!!!!!
• Jul 29 2003 • 1:38PM
As far a Niobe and Ghost they are well and alive. Play the game. Or read the thread.
• Jul 29 2003 • 1:57PM
Niobe and Ghost are both alive, but lost somewhere in uncharted territory in the sewers (pipes? access routes?) around Zion. Their ship is down. So they're pretty much stuck.
• Jul 29 2003 • 4:00PM
Personally I don't think it was a ship that EMP'd the squiddies just because of how Neo seems to have a realization that he can stop them. He stops , looks puzzled, walks back and puts his hand up. I don't think they would show that otherwise.
• Jul 29 2003 • 4:23PM
It wasnt an EMP, ctm3. Your right. Dont feel like explaining why right now cuz im all weirded out on Vikadin. IF anyone wants to know, ill explain.
• Jul 29 2003 • 9:21PM
If the 12 council members would infact represent the diciples of jesus , who is jesus then ? In this matrix case ..... I cant find anything else that connects to the number 12 in a religous aspect.
• Jul 30 2003 • 1:17AM
Injury/Death Matrix vs Real:
It's totally reasonable that in-matrix injuries/death carry over to the 'real' world:
Ever seen frog muscles artificially contracted by external stimulation hock from a 9-volt battery? Ever feel how much stronger adrenaline makes you? Ever hear a weight-training coach tell you that un-balanced muscle exertion can lead to injury?
If the matrix electronically sends your brain a trigger to induce a huge point-source muscular contraction, and to pump a huge burst of adrenaline into your body simultaneously, then it's easy to see how the mis-managed brain could cause very-real injury. If the matrix sends supressing signals to the portions of the brain that control breating, you cant override the electrical impulse until it is removed. The heart will beat on its own, for a while, but without oxygen you're toast in minutes. And who knows, maybe the 'death' event in the matrix is accompanied by sending high-voltage through the wires to your real brain, frying it!
• Jul 30 2003 • 1:21AM
Anomalies-be-gone!!:
2) Anomalies should not persist from one Maxtrix version to the next...
Ever program up a routine designed to approximate the solution to an equation that can't be numerically solved directly? Such programs iterate, and with each iteration two types of error typically arise, 'known' error, contained in an 'error term', which may grow or shrink with each iteration, and 'unknown' error that creeps into the results from things like unpredicted computer decimal truncation in approximating numbers like one-third, and from the loss of significant digits that occurs if your program does your math in the wrong order. If you don't know how to code so that successive iterations will reduce both types of error, then as the program iterates on and on, you can watch the unknown error slowly turn your perfect sine curves, for example, into jagged mountain peaks jumping off the chart!
When the results blow up, a common approach is to stop the program at the last fairly good results, and examine the now really uncacceptably large anomany, chuck it out, and re-start the program from the new location. Nice smooth curves again, until the anomalies build up again. Examining the anomaly allows one to tweak the code a bit to try to make it take longer for the errors to get out of hand next time. But one is always wary of unknown (but likely) error creeping in and multiplying out of control and turning your program into crap.
The most reasonable Matrix scenario is that With each reload of the matrix, all the misbehaving code gets dumped: the One, the rogues, the out-of-control Smiths, etc. The Architect undoubtedly tries to learn from the anomalies, so as to refine the code so it'll run longer each time. Why wouldn't it? Why do any of you have reason to think that any of these subroutines running inside the matrix would live on through a re-load that's specifically designed to get rid of anomalies? Hmm?
• Jul 30 2003 • 1:24AM
Somebody help me out - I just don't get it!!
I'm having a huge problem with the proposed sensory interface between the real-world human and the matrix experience. When you're plugged into the matrix, the matrix software sends electrical signals through the wires to your brain, triggering the same sensory neruons that would ordinarily respond to the 5 senses. It's still external stimuli, but it bypasses one step, your actual eyes, etc. So what's the deal with the mechanism by which the magic phone-call brings you "out of" the matrix so you can use your real senses on the ship?
It ought to just be a slow or buffered disconnect so that your neurons get a smooth voltage transition with no big spikes. How does that allow an instance of Smith to "upload" into a human mind and persist without external power? This one's just not reasonable at all if the Real world is really real. Once the human is unplugged, the Smith software has no more contact to the human's neurons. If the Smith instance IS somehow able to reprogram the human mind and take over, then this further supports that the "real" world is just another onion-skin matrix. Trouble is, I can't tell if it's an oversight by the W brothers, or if it is intentional. I guess the last movie will tell... But I still don't get the phone-call thing at all. Anyone help me out?
• Jul 30 2003 • 2:43AM
Someone up above (I can't find the specific post now!) posted an observation that, in "The Matrix", when Neo is about to get in the car with Trinity and Switch, the graffiti on the wall behind him says "tank is wrong".
Then, when Neo meets Tank later, Tank says, "Me and my brother Dozer, we are 100 percent pure, old-fashioned home-grown human. Born free. Right here in the *real* world".
But Tank has another statement just after that that the graffiti could refer to. When he mentions Zion and Neo asks if it's a city, Tank says, "The last human city. The only place we have left." Intriguing, no? Could there be another settlement of humans that we don't know about yet?
Tank has another interesting line later, when he is taking Neo through the combat training. Morpheus comes up and asks how it's going, and Tank says, "Twelve hours straight. He's a machine."
• Jul 30 2003 • 2:47AM
A couple other random items of possible interest:
-- In "The Animatrix", in "Second Renaissance Part I", the
narrator says something like "...humanity was the architect of
its own destruction", with a distinctive emphasis on "the
architect".
-- In "Second Renaissance Part I" the name of the robot who was
the first to rebel against his human masters was "B1-66ER", which
looks like "BIGGER". (This shows the usefulness of watching stuff
with the subtitles turned on!)
-- What is the significance of the Twins? Why make them twins? In
Greek mythology Castor and Pollux were twin sons of Zeus, and
were members of the Argonauts that sought the Golden Fleece. They
are most commonly known through the zodiac sign Gemini.
According to astrology.com, Geminis are affiliated with the
"air" element and the "mutable" quality. Gemini also rules the
"Third House", which is the "House of Communication". Here is an
interesting excerpt from the site:
"Harnessing our intelligence and sharing it effectively
with others is the essence of the Third House. How do
we best state our case with others, often those we love
the most? Will our actions be true to our environment,
and our planet, for all time? This brings to the fore
emerging forms of intelligence-gathering, such as
computers."
-- The name of the ship in "Last Flight of the Osiris" refers to
the Egyptian god of the dead. If the "Osiris" is a ship of Zion
(the underground city), does this foreshadow the fall of Zion?
• Jul 30 2003 • 10:15AM
sci-fi-man says:
“Why do any of you have reason to think that any of these subroutines running inside the matrix would live on through a re-load that's specifically designed to get rid of anomalies? Hmm?”
Hmm….. Well what makes you think they are “anomalies” at all? Because the Oracle said they were? The Oracle is a machine. Believing her would be your quintessential human delusion. All of what happens in the matrix is planned and executed with the utmost perfection to get Neo to his final destination. This includes the actions of the "rouge programs.”
If you believe the Oracle then remember that she said those programs go into "hiding within the matrix.” She also says, "Every story you've ever heard about vampires, werewolves, or aliens is the system assimilating some program that's doing something they're not supposed to be doing.” Assimilating is the key word.
sci-fi-man says:
So what's the deal with the mechanism by which the magic phone-call brings you "out of" the matrix so you can use your real senses on the ship?
I don’t think that it’s necessary to use the phones to get out. I think it’s more of a convenience. Not everyone has used the phone to get out of the matrix. Popper in the Animatrix self substantiated himself out. This is because he believed the matrix wasn’t real, so he could. Just like Neo believed that the Matrix wasn’t real so he then could not be killed in it. The others lack the total belief therefore must use the exits presented.
As far as Smith…. As I said earlier a program can be loaded into an individuals mind. You said that Tank said "Twelve hours straight. He's a machine." That’s because Tank was loading programs into him. The ships are broadcasting a pirate signal. Are you saying that if you use a wireless modem someone can’t load a virus into your system? So why couldn’t a program like smith take over a mind on the ship that is connected to the Matrix?
On the flip side i also think that it is possible that a mind can leave the body behind and exist in the matrix seperate from the "Physical Mind" as a program.
Just a thought..... I used self substantiated correct. Right?
• Jul 30 2003 • 10:55AM
Scott Hillis
that stuff you wrote there was very nice and fresh , gj man ;)
Scott Hillis says:
A couple other random items of possible interest:
-- In "Second Renaissance Part I" the name of the robot who was
the first to rebel against his human masters was "B1-66ER", which
looks like "BIGGER". (This shows the usefulness of watching stuff
with the subtitles turned on!)
bigger hmm .... i think you're very right that it's supposed to be read as BIGGER but , what is bigger ? Or what is it that will become bigger? Does it refer to the machines ? in the aspect of the control they will get over humanity?
• Jul 30 2003 • 11:33AM
sci-fi man says:
When the results blow up, a common approach is to stop the program at the last fairly good results, and examine the now really uncacceptably large anomany, chuck it out, and re-start the program from the new location. Nice smooth curves again, until the anomalies build up again. Examining the anomaly allows one to tweak the code a bit to try to make it take longer for the errors to get out of hand next time. But one is always wary of unknown (but likely) error creeping in and multiplying out of control and turning your program into crap.
I like this guy!
I'm having a huge problem with the proposed sensory interface between the real-world human and the matrix experience.
I know what you mean. If Zion is supposed to be the real world, then there are two main issues I have a problem with, which we've discussed in this thread. They are:
1. Self Image
One of the things about The Matrix that I wrestled with since the 1999 was the idea of "self image". The story's concept of "self image" states that your "Matrix identity" matches your "physical identity". In other words, if the Matrix's Tom Anderson had brown hair, brown eyes, and a mole on his forehead, then the Zion Neo would too. When Neo came out of the pod, it struck me as a problem that he'd be able to look @ his face in the mirror on the Neb and recognize that face in the mirror as the familiar Tom Anderson he'd seen in the mirror all his life in the Matrix. It didn't bother me so much *how* the machines engineered the "self image" to match the physical characteristics of the "pod body" (i.e. maybe they had built-in scanners in the pods or some other convenient explanation.) What really struck me as weird was *why* the machines would care about matching a human mind's "self image" to its physical pod flesh, especially if 99.9% of the folks wouldn't live to see their pod flesh anyway.
2. The Two Timelines
I've wrestled with the idea of the two timelines for years (i.e. the "Matrix timeline", based on 1999 U.S.A. culture, and the "real world" timeline, which supposedly puts us @ about 2199).
You must ask, does the Matrix world occur in "real time" when compared to the "real world" timeline?
If The Matrix as we see it in TM1 takes place in what *looks* like 1999 U.S.A., but @ the same time has *existed* for 200 years (on the real world calendar), then does this mean that The Matrix, when booted 200 years ago, started in what appeared to be 1799 U.S.A.? Did it have a 19th century? Civil War? Hitler? Bellbottoms? Or has it for the last 200 years been sort of "suspended" in a static and unchanging 1999-ish state?
Did Tom Anderson have a great-grandfather in the Matrix? Did his great-grandfather live his life in the Matrix thinking it was early 20th century? Before computers? Don't stop there. Tell me what young Tom Anderson learned in history class.
The Matrix timeline is apparently in real time when compared to the real world (i.e. You go into the Matrix for an hour, and you've sat in your dentist chair for an hour. The real-time conversations between the jacked and Link/Tank prove this). Since this is the case, I'd like to hear from you what you think it was like in the Matrix, say, 100 years ago. From the perspective of the people in it. Also, upon the fifth reload, where in time did it start?
The only thing that makes sense in all this is that there are no biological humans. The population of Zion is a component of the larger system, necessary to keep it running. Trying to imagine the "beginning" of Zion is as senseless as trying to imagine our planet "before" it started spinning. i.e. Who gave the Earth it's first shove into its eternal spin? It's a good question, but it's pointless to devote mental energy trying to understand it. For all practical purposes, as far as we're concerned, the Earth has been spinning since its inception. In a similar sense, Zion has *always* been populated since its inception.
My guess is that this is the wavelength the bros W are on with regards to the timeline in this story.
Nothing else jives.
• Jul 30 2003 • 12:44PM
The one explanation that works is that the people within the matrix are so dependent on the system - and believe in it so much that they never question why nothing has changed during their lifetime. It could be that all the elders in the matrix (above a certain age) are simply programs designed to certify the beliefs that people have about the past. Therefore the program could stay as a perpetual 20th century environment for quite along time.
The youth wouldn't remember most of their childhood. What they did remember would be implanted memories. Adults would blindly believe that the world they live in is what it is, and never questions how it got that way. The old folks would be taken out prematurely and replaced with programs. No one could be over the age of say 40.
• Jul 30 2003 • 1:45PM
Gost's comment... As far as Smith…. As I said earlier a program can be loaded into an individuals mind. You said that Tank said "Twelve hours straight. He's a machine." That’s because Tank was loading programs into him. The ships are broadcasting a pirate signal. Are you saying that if you use a wireless modem someone can’t load a virus into your system? So why couldn’t a program like smith take over a mind on the ship that is connected to the Matrix? really hits the nub of the interface question.
Does the human body (brain) simply interface with the matrix, like we do now with VR using goggles and headsets only the wires go a little further and actually touch our neurons, bypassing the sensory organs themselves? Or alternatively, does the human mind somehow run matrix software chemically or the matrix runs human mind 'software', with the mind uploading or downloading into the matrix or vice versa?
The interface method makes sense to me, the upload/download method is utterly beyond anything I can even begin to comprehend, or even imagine, without a lot more persuasive illustration (anybody want to try?). So, assuming the interface method, how does the training program work, wherein a mind seemsto "uploads" complex subject matter in a very short time span?
On the other hand, if the consensus is that the mind/matrix extperience involves one running in/on the other, then please share some possible mechanisms for how in the heck that might work. There is no mention anywhere in the movie(s) story that suggests that the matrix somehow programs or controls human thought, only that it presents a sensory illusion that the human can choose to accept or deny, and adjusts that illusion in real time as the human responds to what it perceives.
As for Smith virus-like taking over another entity, this analogy works fine for me if smith is taking over another software entity. But the human mind disconnected from the matrix no longer supports the matrix eperience or 'runs' matrix software except as memory. How the smith could persist in a mind no longer 'jacked' in except as a bad memory of a bad trip, that I need help with. Otherwise, when people 'wake up' to the real world, the matrix ought to keep running in their minds and they really wouldn't wake up at all. They'd still believe they were in the matrix experience.
• Jul 31 2003 • 5:54AM
Glad to see there's so many fresh incoming to this thread.
Sci-fi-man:As for Smith virus-like taking over another entity
Smith takes over another software entity works fine indeed. The persistence of Smith if the person is disconnected can be explained by a higher dimension of the bad memory of a bad trip you alluded to.
If you look at it, then everything we register from our experiences, origins from electrical pulses into our neurons via nerve synapses etc. Memory is stored in a same way, perhaps in a biochemical/electrochemical configuration. Smith could have been uploading so much information into the brains that they're a. toast (and the person dies) or b. gain schizofrenic aspects.
Of course in the latter case, Smith can maintain himself as he has uploaded himself in the schizofrenic part of the brains. It is known from clinical studies that schizofrenic have a certain area in their brains that is much more active whereas other parts are suppressed.
Voila, there you have your possible explanation for the persistence of Smith. It's not just a bad memory, it is a memory that keeps chasing you during your life if you're not correctly treated for it.
• Jul 31 2003 • 6:31AM
Have you read:
http://www.kurzweilai.net/articles/art0553.html?printable=1
Programming humans is an old topic. There are many stories about militaries trying this. For eample through Hypnosis you can influence the subconsciousness of other people, so why should this be possible mich faster and more efficient if you have direct wire-access?
I like sci-fi-mans talk about the errors, but i think it is somehow more complex, because you can't simply reload everything. There are people in the Matrix, which must be care for every second. No time to reboot.
I like this Neo-only-Matrix-theory, but why did he loose his consciousness? Why is he on a table with near Bane? Nevertheless Neos quote "Something is different. I can feel them now", points to something like this.
• Jul 31 2003 • 7:03AM
what do you mean with Neo-only-Matrix-theory?
• Jul 31 2003 • 8:13AM
The theory about a Construct which simulates a reality just for Neo. He entered it after choosing the door. The Architect made a reality for Neo to better research the anomaly.
KurzweilAI has more interesting articles:
http://www.kurzweilai.net/meme/frame.html
?main=/meme/memelist.html?m%3D6
Do you think the Matrix will have an happy end or an open end?
I think Neo and Smith will become the key figures. They act as two counterparts, like Yin and Yang. The Good and the Evil. They are more the same as they think, since Neo has parts of Smith and vice versa after Neo blasted Smith in m1. Perhaps Trinity joins this team in the last second and fulfills her name-given fate to complete the holy trinity. What a threesome. The human, the machine and the ... uhm ... sidekick?
Currently i am looking for some arguments to back up the theory. First idea:
Why should Neo and Smith fight all the time, if Smith can replicate himself infinite times and Neo can fly away? The burly-brawl. The door-corridors before the Architect. The duell in the trailer.
• Jul 31 2003 • 8:17AM
I found another thing:
Morpheus(Matrix1): "in the early 21st century, all of mankind united and marveled at our magnificence as we gave birth to AI, a singular construction that spawned an entire race of machines."
But acording to the Zion Archives (Animatrix) B1-66ER was random accident, a criminal. The humanity never liked the AI or 01.
• Jul 31 2003 • 9:41AM
Beza1e1,
no I don't believe in the Neo only Matrix theory. It is plausible, the interaction with Morph' and Trin' and the plot with the Sentinels etc. could be programmed (especially since everything which we've seen thus far could be AI), but it seems to much of a complex development. That would mean that we are looking at three levels : 1. matrix 2. zionists 3. Neo-matrix. Too damn complicated for the gross of the Matrix viewers. The W bro's wouldn't get away with it.
I am 100 % sure and I truly hope that the matrix will have an open end, and it won't be a happy end. Neo and Smith will indeed be key figures. Trinity is important but not as the holy Trinity in this concept. Trin' is just the holy Trinity in the configuration Morph', Neo and Trin'.
Why do Neo and Smith have to fight all the time?
Excellent question. It seems that Smith starts the whole thing and is pissed off or superenthusiastic about his powers... whatever.
The very true essence of them fighting all the time is not completely clear to me. It doesn't contribute to anything ( at least not in Reloaded)
• Jul 31 2003 • 10:05AM
I have been thinking the whole time about the gold or yellowish appearance of Seraph in Reloaded. Why does he look so different from the other green programs that are all over the matrix?
The films don't let us see it that often, but up till now, golden appearances were present in:
TM1:
1. When the Neb' is lifting up the newborn Neo from the sewers, there is a golden heart on Neo's chest.
2. exactly right after Smith is blown up by Neo, Neo is completely surrounded by a golden aura.
TMR:
3. Seraph is completely in gold in 'Neo-style-vision'.
4. The female orgasm is in gold in 'Neo-style-vision'.
What if ... I just throw this in the group... what if typically human aspects (emotions, strong feelings, appearances etc. are appearing in a yellowish colour).
Thus, turn it all upside down. Everything, everything is program... except the Oracle, Seraph, the architect perhaps (to bad we don't see Neo vision all the time), Neo perhaps, programs that are reaching the level of human emotions...
The whole plot of the Matrix could be one Giant Turing Test as discussed previously. Humans are at the monitor looking at AI developing itself for building a matrix that allows a more efficient self-improvementt process.
At least we can say that the appearance of Trin' and Seraph is completely different, one is program the other not, ...which one of the 2 ? Hmmm...
Maybe I got myself a little bit too carried away. Again, I thought I'd just throw this in the group.
• Jul 31 2003 • 11:02AM
Just saw the movie for the second time tonight. The whole thing gelled a lot more having read and re-read transcripts of key conversations. I also watched it with an eye on details like graffiti, numbers and names. Here are couple minor observations.
1. Just before the Burly Brawl, graffiti on one of the walls says "ONE". A few minutes later in the thick of the fighting, it says "ONEONE". Not sure what to make of that. Is it a statement of the obvious, or is it a hint that we shouldn't believe the Architect's assertion that there have been five previous Ones?
2. When Smith chases down Bane and the other poor bastard in the Matrix, Bane faces him and says, "Oh God". Smith replies, "Smith will suffice." That indicates to me that Smith has developed serious megalomania and in fact seeks total domination over the Matrix.
MORE
• Jul 31 2003 • 11:45AM
beza1e1 says:
"Why should Neo and Smith fight all the time, if Smith can replicate himself infinite times and Neo can fly away? The burly-brawl. The door-corridors before the Architect. The duell in the trailer."
I'm starting to think that there has to be a "Alpha Smith". The Smith that started the rest and is controlling them all. I think the duel in the trailer shows Neo fighting the One True Smith.
Lets say Smith can take over the mind of an individual by passing electric signals from one nerve cell to the next - this would cause chemical signals at the synapses. The imprinting of this Smith Program is cause from the strengthening of the chemical signaling at the synapses and the changing and forming of several different molecules.
Also what's to say that all humans born into the matrix don't have a chip hardwired into their brains that is accessed when the probe is inserted?
But anyway that copy of the Smith program would be different then the original program in my opinion. So I think that there is an Alpha Smith that controls the rest or at least lets the rest do his bidding. I think that the Smith Alpha program is currently residing in the mind of Bain. It would only make ironic sense.....
• Jul 31 2003 • 11:45AM
This golden aura is interesting. Why isn't Trinity (or her heart at least) golden, when Neo revives her? Or do we just see it in skeleton-view??
Perhaps the golden things are code-pieces, which don't belong to the real (lol) Matrix. The seraph is an amok program, the orgasm is produced by the Merovingian, Smiths blast was made by Neo und the golden heart (hu? have to watch it again) could be the red pill.
I think it would be a bad move from the W's, if the Architect is just lying.
• Jul 31 2003 • 2:58PM
Perhaps Seraph was the previous "ONE" before Neo. As they both are gold and he is able to fight Neo one on one without trouble.
• Jul 31 2003 • 3:23PM
Here's something I hadn't considered before:
If the Matrix within a Matrix theory is correct, where does that root-level matrix exist? Is there a "real world" at all? If so, do you think we'll see it in Revolutions? If not, what's the philosophical implication -- maybe like asking "What's outside the universe?"
What if Revolutions ends with the massive battle, Neo & Co. win, and their victory gains them passage to the REAL real world? (Perhaps it even looks like Disneyland on a crisp spring morning...)
• Jul 31 2003 • 5:10PM
When Neo saw the Merv's building he said the code looked different. I assume that is because the building was written in the older version of the Matrix, so the code that was used was different.....
So mabey the gold code is from Programs that were written in an older matrix. Mabey the first One?
So when Smith is blown up by Neo, Neo is completely surrounded by a golden aura because the ONE program is uploaded into him. And that program is as old aas the matrix.
Seraph is completely in gold in 'Neo-style-vision' because he is a old program from the begining.
The female orgasm is in gold in 'Neo-style-vision' becasue the Merv is one of the oldest programs and he wrote it.
Works dosn't it......
• Jul 31 2003 • 9:14PM
COntinuing a couple observations from my second viewing of the movie (I got cut off last night by my locally cached system of control, otherwise known as a wife):
3. Niobe's ship is called "Logos" after the Greek concept of a universal revelatory force. Stoics believed that every human was part of a universal community and logos acted as sort of the moral compass. Christians later adopted the idea to cover universal salvation (this according to a PBS Web site). I doubt there is a broader significance in terms of the impact on the story, but it just shows again the efforts the filmmakers have put in to emphasize certain themes.
4. When Trinity hacks the power plant near the end, one of the codes visible on screen is "Z10N0101". You see "101" appear several times in the movie, from Neo's apartment number in the first movie, to the highway route in "Reloaded".
5. At one point some agents come across Neo and refer to him as "the anomoly". I remember watching that scene last night and going, "Ah, so Neo really is the anomoly and not Smith", but now I am wondering if I remembered that correctly and if Smith wasn't in that scene as well and the agent's comments could have referred to him instead of Neo. Anyone else remember?
• Jul 31 2003 • 9:39PM
As to why Smith and Neo keep fighting, in their first meeting after the Oracle scene, Neo begins by fighting a handful of Smiths, and is doing quite well. He is testing the limits of his abilities, and when the 100 pile on him, he finally realizes the odds are too great. Later in the hallway he is just trying to protect the Keymaker and Morpheus. As soon as the Keymaker opens the door, he grabs Morpheus and jets through, he doesn't hang around to get his ass kicked.
Even after my second viewing I don't have a firm theory of what is going on. There are a couple signs that support the Matrix within a Matrix theory, such as Neo stopping the sentinels, his Trinity dream appearing on the screens of the architect, the reappearance of the spoon. But that would require disregarding the Architect's version of events as well as much of the background given in the Animatrix.
My guess is by the end of "Reloaded" Neo has somehow maintained a connection to the Matrix despite being unjacked. He is able to disable the sentinels through a command issued via the Matrix. The Architect, who undoubtedly has root-level priveleges in the Matrix, may be able to see the dreams and physical states of those jacked in since the Matrix link essentially opens a window into the human mind.
I think we have to take the idea of a man-machine war at face value, but what has happened since the first humans were driven underground is totally up in the air. Is Zion being totally controlled like a puppet, or does it retain a certain measure of choice? Is there a larger purpose that Zion is driving towards? I think there is definitely some sort of man-machine reconcilliation or merging coming up in "Revolutions", but whether this in fact the true purpose of the Matrix that has taken six iterations to get right or a side effect of the sixth version doing something unexpected, i.e. Neo opting to save Trinity, I'm not sure.
So here is my WASG (wild-ass scientific guess), based on what we know and a couple of obscure clues. We know the Oracle believes the only path to the future is for humans and machines to work together. Neo has "made a believer" out of her, meaning he has managed to master the Matrix and alter his consciousness to such a degree that the Oracle for the first time really believes her vision is possible. In the first movie, the graffiti that says "tank is wrong" refers to his statement that Zion is the last human city, the only place they have left. There is in fact another human enclave, much smaller than Zion, that has been working secretly with the Oracle and other friendly renegade machines, to achieve a sort of ultimate man-machine synthesis. This synthesis is unexpectedly playing itself out in two characters, Neo, who will serve as an example to liberate both man and machines, and Smith, who wants to use his heightened awareness or powers or whatever to dominate and control.
Sorry for the long post. It just sort of got out of, um, control.
• Jul 31 2003 • 11:35PM
Scott Hillis , i just have to say that u always suceed in finding bitch ass good and fress details that are essential in this discussion. hats up for u.
Now another thing :
Scott hillis says :
4. When Trinity hacks the power plant near the end, one of the codes visible on screen is "Z10N0101". You see "101" appear several times in the movie, from Neo's apartment number in the first movie, to the highway route in "Reloaded".
Its the code that interests me.
"Z10N0101" . At first i couldnt figure out why there was an extra 0 after Z10N, it just seemed insymetric. But then it struck me.
"Z10N0101" can be divided in :
N0
Z10N
101
Dont know if im overanalytic but maybe its a hint that there is N0 Z10N and its just a 101 effect (someshit about Orwells book 1984 or something 101 beeing a dreamstate room) .
• Aug 01 2003 • 2:41AM
Sajjman, thanks for the kind comments. That's one of the delightfully frustruating things about these movies, huh? You never know if something is in there as a sly reference or interesting sidenote, or if it will end up being crucial to the entire series.
• Aug 01 2003 • 3:19AM
Scott,
I noticed you had a lot of questions after your second viewing of TMR. If you have not done so already, I recommend you looking at the old thread in which we had almost 1000 posts. It takes you 12 whole hours, but it's fun, you'll discover so many new things and interesting viewings of these awesome movies. Things as the spoon, the architect, the Z1ON0101 (especially the theory around 0101 is fun) and other stuff from your post are covered in it.
For what it's worth, we're all stuck with our uncertainty and can only focus our thoughts a little bit by our joint efforts to analyze, study and hypothesize so many aspects that make these films so rich and great.
Does anyone else have some more thoughts on the gold code? Is it relevant?
• Aug 01 2003 • 3:28AM
Oh, some details on the ships. When Neo and Trin' come out of the elevator in Zion, there's hundreds of people welcoming him as a Messiah.
One of the women asks for her son's protection (I forgot his name) but he served on the Icarus.
It is this Icarus that is blown up and the crew dies.
Of all the ships that exist, TMR gives a prayer for protection of the Icarus, that later is destroyed. Is this relevant information? Of course Neo cannot protect everyone, but is it relevant that specifically this ship is mentioned and later is destroyed. Is Neo lacking power (this may also be overanalytical)
• Aug 01 2003 • 7:28AM
I think the golden glow is only really important with the seraph, because on other occasions it may be only to focus on special things within the green code. The seraph however is different. Too bad we never see Neo in matrix-view.
Another human resistance? Where/When does Matriculated (animatrix) play? Was it another Zion or is it at the same time as Neo?
If you read Z10N as Zion, then 101 must be lol ?!
Another thing about the EMPing of the Squiddies. In Enter the Matrix a friend told me, if you choose Niobe, you fly the Logos in the end. Chased by 200 Squiddies, down a unknown tunnel, where the ship crashes. Niobe survives and ask herself, wether the others will ever find her. The important thing: The rest of squiddies (ca. 50) just fall down, as if EMPed. This is just a thing a friend told me, so i am not sure. Can anybody else prove it?
• Aug 01 2003 • 7:41AM
beza1e1 :
yeah its true u do fly the Logos in the end of the game and they're chased by 1001300400140 (alot of) squiddies and u'r supposed to shoot them down but if my i dont missremember you do charge off an EMP that makes the ship immobile and the squiddies fall down , hence they being stuck in the tunnelsystems. But remember , EMP's do effect the ship from which its uncharged .
• Aug 01 2003 • 8:02AM
Actually, we do see Neo in Neo-style-vision, this is when he bends over Trin', sticking his hand in her chest and getting the bullet out of her or heart massaging her.
I don't think that Neo is here in golden code, but the digital blood that you see stream through Trin's veins is yellowish. Of course, this could only be yellow/gold to actually make it visible what Neo was doin' there.
• Aug 01 2003 • 8:20AM
I like the idea of another human enclave by the way. Not that it's right, I just like it, and the council may be well aware of this.
The least that you can say is that the council knows more than the other zionists (maybe the female councelor is the mother of the matrix) as she is the only person of importance (other than the oracle) and of the same age as the architect throughout the movie.
I hope the W bro's will explain everything scene by scene, but I 'm sure they won't. The Trilogy would loose it's mythical properties. If everything is known by their explanation, the Trilogy will not be discussed that much anymore in the future. Let's face it, the W bro's have tried to grasp the history books of filmography, they are currently succeeding and I hope they won't let go.
This awsome thread would never exist anyway and bleed to death if everything was already known, wouldn't it?
It's as with humanity. We study, we investigate, we explore, we try to reach and to surpass boundaries, because the world as we see it is only partially comprehensable. If everything was clear and well known in our lives, the tendency for investigating it would be much less.
I hope for the Wachowki's sake that they have realized this and for me personally, do not need to explain one of the best films and trilogies ever made. (Amen ;-) )
• Aug 01 2003 • 9:25AM
Perhaps they will release a special behind-the-scenes-and-background-story-book-plus-dvd-of-all-three-movies-special-edition for some thousands of dollars in limited edition. Where most details are explained, otherwise we will get some books on this topic from other authors. This way the myth will last for some years more.
But appearance does not show the age of a machine. We know that Persephone is very old, perhaps even as old as the Architect, but her looks don suffer from this ;)
• Aug 01 2003 • 9:33AM
spoonboy says: We know from M2 that there are approximately 250,000 people in Zion @ this point. To believe that the council members are of the original 23 forefathers of the sixth iteration, you must believe that they're a couple thousand years old.
not neccessarily as i believe zion to be in the matrix, one assumes that not all in zion are humans, if any.
With Persephone demanding kisses from people besides Neo, does that change her theororized role in the trilogy?
persophones role does not change, the kiss is a test of sorts she uses on the charactors you have mentioned.
how Neo seems to have a realization that he can stop them. He stops , looks puzzled, walks back and puts his hand up. I don't think they would show that otherwise.
neo looks puzzled as you say, as he has become aware of zions true nature(still in the matrix). perhaps due to a smal evolutionary step, or his meeting with the architect, or perhaps he was programmed to react in this manner at this time (architect design).
But acording to the Zion Archives (Animatrix) B1-66ER was random accident, a criminal. The humanity never liked the AI or 01.
one would assume if zion was in the matrix the archive would be a lie and complete fabrication, designed to make the zionites believe they are in the real world.
siddarta says:Why does he look so different from the other green programs that are all over the matrix?
this in down to neo and the fact he is evolving, perhaps previous to this point he was still unable to determine programs from avatars.
This golden aura is interesting. Why isn't Trinity (or her heart at least) golden, when Neo revives her? Or do we just see it in skeleton-view??
neo and trin appear in matrix code much the same as the agents.
1)they are all programs (neo and trin)
2)they are all avatars (neo and trin and agents etc)
3)this is determined by neo's ability to see. what if trin was a program and neo could see this, but as he did not want to see or believe this he prevents himself from doing so. also it is safe to assume that all neo see's is controlled by the architect in any case. The architect allowed neo to see seraph as a program, as this realisation on neo's part is just the next step towars meeting the architect.
• Aug 01 2003 • 9:51AM
Siddarta Gouthama says:
Oh, some details on the ships. When Neo and Trin' come out of the elevator in Zion, there's hundreds of people welcoming him as a Messiah.
to me this seen was more about neo dependacy on trinity for emotional support. and was emphaseing the bond which the architect later takes advantage of.
Too bad we never see Neo in matrix-view.
we do when he restarts trinity's heart at the end.
siddarta says:It's as with humanity. We study, we investigate, we explore, we try to reach and to surpass boundaries, because the world as we see it is only partially comprehensable.
too right mate, we are obligated to ourselves to make the unknown known, i think this thread strives in that direction.
• Aug 01 2003 • 12:19PM
After M3 and the discussion following this will be the biggest thread on the net, guaranteed. It should be archived in the Z10N mainframe.
• Aug 01 2003 • 1:10PM
ctm3 says:
FYI Someone mentioned the standard galactic alphabet being used in the 'real world' on Neo's door just before the Oracle scene. I'll have to check that out
Has anyone checked that out yet? As to what the numbers on the door stand for?????
• Aug 01 2003 • 2:09PM
scott says:
If the Matrix within a Matrix theory is correct, where does that root-level matrix exist? Is there a "real world" at all?
Great point. This is one reason I don't think the "onion skin" variation of the "matrix-in-matrix" theory is anything special, as it only leaves everything conveniently open for sequels. And we can be fairly confident that the W's never intended more than three installments. This onion skin thing has been done before with "dream within a dream within a dream" types of stuff. Summing the whole Matrix trilogy up into an onion skin model would only leave us asking for Matrix 4, which would feel cheap IMO.
scott hillis says:
"Z10N0101" can be divided in :
N0
Z10N
101
I like it! Fits right into the W bros' palindromic/anagrammic style. I like it! Where were you two months ago??? :)
Dont know if im overanalytic
The moment you question your overanalyticalness is the moment you're thinking too hard. ;)
• Aug 01 2003 • 10:30PM
Spoon Boy says:
scott hillis says:
"Z10N0101" can be divided in :
N0
Z10N
101
EHUM MATE , i have to take credit for that once since i was the founder of that theory ;) read a couple comments up and u'll se it, i just made a bad BOLDTEXT on his name :/ my bad .
"Z10N0101" can be divided in :
N0
Z10N
101
Dont know if im overanalytic but maybe its a hint that there is N0 Z10N and its just a 101 effect (someshit about Orwells book 1984 or something 101 beeing a dreamstate room) .
» by Sajjman on July 31, 2003 at 11:35:38 ET
• Aug 02 2003 • 10:10AM
wow this is still going@!
• Aug 03 2003 • 6:02AM
In Animatrix Detective Story. The detective has 201 written on his door.
The heroine in Program has "highscores on everything". Perhaps she was a former One?
Does Matriculated show another human resistance or a former Zion?
• Aug 04 2003 • 7:01AM
Speaking of the detective story, there's a contradiction in that episode, or at least something that is not completely clear.
Did Morpheus hire the detective or were it the Agents?
If you listen carefully to the telephone voice in the beginning, then it sounds like Morpheus, who offers the PI a job.
Trin' also says something about a difference between a trap or a test, alluding to the fact that it was all a test for the PI.
But then at the moment that things start rolling in the train compartment, you here the detective say:"They hired me to get to you, didn't they".
This is an allusion to the agents who were after him.
Which one of the 2 is correct? Is it just a misconception of the PI? I guess so. Thus it really was a test from Morpheus to see whether he was capable of doin' or not.
One important questions for you Americans out here. Do you guys have a special symbol for the court law and jurisdiction in the US? Would this be the eagle with a skull in it's claws and a 'quadrifolium' (I don't know the english translation, but it's like 4 leafs at 1 stem).
The reason I ask is that in the 2nd renaiss. I you see this eagle symbol at the court process of B166ER. It reminded me of the eagle you have with the arrows etc. (e pluribus unum), but I just found it strange to see that kind of court law symbol in the Animatrix.
• Aug 04 2003 • 7:02AM
Ooops, sorry for the double post
• Aug 04 2003 • 9:41AM
I'm starting to notice something strange regarding the Agents in the two movies. Has anyone else noticed the fact they only morph into people at the moment the individual sees a rebel? At first I thought that it was just because the agents warped into the nearest human program. But I noticed a few occasions where the agents didn't know where they were and they still warped in. Example is in the subway, when Trin and Neo are about to call out @ then end of M1. The Bum sees the two and then changes into Smith who shoots the phone and stops Neo from leaving.
Now the reason I say anything is because I’m starting to think that when a person in the Matrix sees something strange, unbelievable, or out of the ordinary the agent programs pick up on the signal and they warp in. Watch it again + Tell me if you’re with me.
But I still have one big question.. In M1 when Neo meets the team under the bridge, Why didn't Neo morph into an agent? I know Trin had the gun to his head. I think mabey the bug was placed to track them and then trap em, and the Agents might have thought it was still in em.
• Aug 04 2003 • 9:59AM
Not sure if this has been mentioned yet...
In the latest game industry previews for The Matrix Online (MMORPG) the W brothers have said that the game will be a continuation of the story following Revolutions. They want players to build the story further by interacting within the virtual (umm...) Matrix.
It's typical game industry rhetoric, but (more interestingly) also implies that the Matrix will still exist at the end of Revolutions.
• Aug 04 2003 • 11:06AM
Ghost says:
I'm starting to notice something strange regarding the Agents in the two movies
ive picked up on that myself,one would assume that as you say as soon as an avatar see's the primary targets, the agents morph in, so to speak. m2 illustates the advance stage of this, in which smith can do multipul morph's. this leads me to a question that hasd bugged me, when smith has multiplied to say 100 or 1000 smiths. obviously humans, if there are humans rigged up to the matrix sim, all have blank screens so to speak, no stimulea is been fed into there brains, when smith takes their avators. in m2 they state that in the last 6 months, more humans have been freed than ever before, right? maybe neo did not free all these people, but they were discarded by the matrix because of smith taking over all the avators.
ghost says:
But I still have one big question.. In M1 when Neo meets the team under the bridge, Why didn't Neo morph into an agent?
simply because neo is the one, and the architect knows he is the one/anomaly it would seem inappropriate to capture trin and co at this point, as neo has yet to fullfill his role of:
1)realise the true reality of the world he inhabits
2)die and become the one
3)meet the architect and realise everything he has been told (by morpheous/ oracle etc) is an even bigger deception
4)be manipulated by the architect further and save trin (who is not even real anyway) instead of doing what the previous five versions of himself did and go through the other door(the arhcitect wants a different outcome this time).
and perhaps at this point even though he is jacked in he cant be taken over by an agent(on the assumption that zion is real), and also if zion is in the matrix it is irrelevant because even when freed, neo is still under control to a certain degree. someone said that neo may be the only human, im starting to sway in that direction, or perhaps there arent any humans in the entire story, its only our own human arrogance that suggest's there should be humans in the matrix, matriculated could be hinting at the true nature of the matrix, perhaps all machines are hooked up and wish to live as humans, but are unable to in the real world so link up to the matrix to live out there human wish fantasies. its feasable, as it is the reverse of how we project ourselve's in vr/playstation2 games whatever for 12hrs plus pretending to be machines/ the rebel alliance/lara croft etc.
• Aug 04 2003 • 11:15AM
(someshit about Orwells book 1984 or something 101 beeing a dreamstate room) .
room 101 is where people realsied there darkest fears, as a form of punishment for not conforming to the system (remeber john hurt having his face nawed away by starving rats). me thinks that perhaps there is no link between matrix and 1984 room 101's, and 101 simply refer's to 5 or 6 if you count 0000.
• Aug 04 2003 • 12:20PM
did the keymaker get erased in versions 1 - 5? if version 7 does kick in presumably there would be backup files of keymaker/ oracle etc if they were previously destroyed? and wanted to be used again by the architect in version 7.
• Aug 04 2003 • 12:34PM
bell says:
did the keymaker get erased in versions 1 - 5? if version 7 does kick in presumably there would be backup files of keymaker/ oracle etc if they were previously destroyed? and wanted to be used again by the architect in version 7.
You can think of the Keymaker, and all the other programs for that matter, as an iteration of itself running in RAM. A program which is opened and running in RAM will lose all unsaved changes once you reboot the computer. Upon reboot, the programs launch again and start over from the beginning, effectively forgetting what they were doing before the reboot.
• Aug 04 2003 • 2:02PM
Hey i can't wrap my noodle around this... Can anybody shed some light??
WachowskiBros: "There's something uniquely interesting about Buddhism and mathematics, particularly about quantum physics, and where they meet. That has fascinated us for a long time.."
• Aug 04 2003 • 2:45PM
More to think about thanks Ghost...
Buddhism has a lot to do with human consiousness, causality, and how our own thinking gives meaning to our world. (hmm sounds like the matrix to me). Quantum theory shows the universe and all of its inherent bits and pieces only exists because there is human mind to validate it and make it so.
I did some research on AI and came up with this.. (speaking of strong AI where human thoughts can be reduced to algorithms)..
"Computationalism is thus diametrically opposed to Buddhist philosophy, which regards the subtle mind (that which survives death and goes on to the next life) as a fundamental aspect of reality, not an emergent or epiphenomenon of matter. Buddhism views a sentient being human or animal and its mind as a totally different kind of thing from a machine or automaton. "
intriguing indeed
• Aug 04 2003 • 4:10PM
Ralphy,
Yes I've seen the pre-alpha-tech demo (say that 3 times fast) of the game and yes the demonstrator, who was tight lipped about what remaining characters from the trilogy will be featured in the game, did say that the game starts following Matrix 3, where "characters have just taken the red pill" and are realizing they are not in the matrix anymore, and that players will shape their own world in the multiplayer environment. So...seems the matrix survives but people may have a choice to be in it in the end.
Game looks pretty cool, you can play Persephone I believe. :)
• Aug 04 2003 • 4:17PM
Put yourself in Neo's shoes for the moment, and imagine the following, from his perspective:
1. You go to work, get a phone call from Morpheus, get busted by Agents for whatever reason, and they put a mechanical bug into your navel, taking your mouth away in the process.
2. You wake up in bed. It's nighttime. You feel for your mouth, and it's there. That whole bug thing must've been a dream.
3. You immediately get a phone call from Morpheus inviting you to meet his people under the bridge. You agree. Upon meeting them, Trinity takes the bug out of your navel, proving to you that what you had thought was a dream was actually your own reality.
Question #1: How did you get into bed?
Question #2: If you woke up thinking the bug was a dream, what is it exactly that you believe happened that day in the office?
Question #2: How much time has elapsed between the Agents planting the bug in your navel, and the bridge meeting? Was it the same day?
Bake on...
• Aug 04 2003 • 4:22PM
Concerning Ghost's questions on the Agent warp in Neo thing:
Ghost said:when a person in the Matrix sees something strange...+ Tell me if you’re with me
I couldn't agree more. That's the way they locate them.
Why didn't Neo morph into an agent
Trin' to the detective: "there's a difference between a test and a trap"
This goes also for Neo. The huge test for Neo is that he has to stay calm in all circumstances. Neo accepts what he sees, because he expects every moment to wake up. Neo considers Trin' and Morph' still as part of his world, why would he think differently? The rebels are prudent indeed, but Neo manages to keep himself under control.
Oh and by the way, the agents weren't specifically after Trin' and Neo,
they were after Morpheus. The agents waited for Neo to meet Morpheus and then to warp in. But 1. Trin' had already removed the bug (explosive device is a good explanation, tracking device is redundant). 2. They didn't know when Neo actually met Morpheus, as Neo stayed too calm. The Agents as sentying programs can sense strange observations by hooked up people, but they can't actually read people's thoughts. They have to know for sure that they can warp in without being killed. By the way, I don't think they have a second chance to warp in the same body. Everytime they exited a body in the MAtrix and Reloaded, they were killed or the people were killed. So they didn't warp into Neo, because they didn't sense him being in Morph's proximity and they don't have a second chance for doing it.
And finally, by the time that Neo started to freak out on the mirror thing, he already had taken the red pill and his input/output location was disturbed.
• Aug 04 2003 • 5:49PM
Genius on the theory about the agents. It works perfect because if Neo didn't have the abilities of the One then the agents would have sensed Neo being with the rebels. Smith would warp in + he would have been shot. Process of elimination I guess?
I still need more info on How Buddhism links to Mathematics?. The W's said that link is the basis behind thier movies.
But roll this around. Could someone leave the matrix threw the use of meditation? Much like the Animatrix "World Record" and "Kids story" mixed. Mabey that's what happened to Spoon Boy. He concentrated so hard that he freed his mind?
• Aug 04 2003 • 6:24PM
Ghost says:
I still need more info on How Buddhism links to Mathematics?. The W's said that link is the basis behind thier movies.
Upon reviewing your first post with their quote, I see that the W's have said:
"There's something uniquely interesting about Buddhism and mathematics, particularly about quantum physics, and where they meet. That has fascinated us for a long time.."
Turning our attention to the definition of quantum physics:
quantum physics: The branch of physics that uses quantum theory to describe and predict the properties of a physical system.
That said, to help you out with your brainstorm, I'll point out that they're not necessarily speaking of of "Buddhism linking to Mathematics", but rather the unclear line that separates the two. From their quote, the real interest lies in @ the junction of the physical world (quantum physics) with the non-physical (Buddhist philosophy).
Maybe that's what happened to Spoon Boy. He concentrated so hard that he freed his mind?
Exaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaactly. :)
• Aug 04 2003 • 10:23PM
no offense, but some of you ppl have extracted this movie (that wasn't really that great, the first was sooo much better) that it is much worse than it was to beging with. sorry.
• Aug 05 2003 • 2:22AM
Kavi,
the first was great, the second was more attractive for "le grand public" but the plot development in conjunction with the first matrix is much much greater than the first matrix as such. But no offense taken at all, we're just here to understand it.
Spoon boy and Ghost on quantum physics:
I already mentioned this quantum stuff on July 14th, and I come to think of the existence of quantum computers. Quantum computers have another logistic. It is not binary as in 0 or 1, but you can have different possibilities between 0 and 1. This is the specific characteristic of quantum computer technology. In the matrix this would mean that different possibilities are happening at the same time.
If I'm not mistaking, someone already mentioned this in the 931 thread.
I should look it up.
Spoon boy thought so hard that he freed his mind?
OK fair enough, quite a mind job to do it. But than you must also escape your pod, or you must get out of the sewer system, without any help of the rebels, with a body (eyes etc.) that you've never used before.
I wonder how that went...
• Aug 05 2003 • 5:32AM
That must be exactly the problem, Popper had. Without the red pill and the tracking devices of the Nebuchadnezzar. How did they find him after he self-substantiated?
Didn't the Merovingian tell, he is older than the current iteration of the Matrix? So i can't be deleted by a reboot. Linked with the fact, that Link lost the rebels, when they entered his house/castle, this leads to the assumption, that the Merovingians home is not part of the Matrix, but a external node or something. Similar to the backdoor corridor.
As far as i know quantum computers are several atoms, which can have 5 different values (0,1,...) at once. Understanding this is hard, using it even harder. Thats the problem today. We have to develop a new kind of mathematics to create algorithms for quantum computers.
• Aug 05 2003 • 10:00AM
What do you think is closer to the tech used by the machines Quantom computers or Organic Computers?
• Aug 05 2003 • 10:49AM
bezale1 says: that Link lost the rebels, when they entered his house/castle, this leads to the assumption, that the Merovingians home is not part of the Matrix,
merovingians chateu is in the matrix, link just had to have time to track where neo and co were, down to the fact that using the keys took them great distances within the matrix.
i practice zen meditation as well as many other forms of meditation, budihism's role is that of enlightenment and learning or should i say realising the true nature of reality. the w's want us to take this on board, say when u see a wasp ones immediate reaction may be to swat it, though zen teaches us to truly see the wonderment of this life form, its genius of being.
siddarta says: Spoon boy thought so hard that he freed his mind?
spoon boy attained a higher state of consciousness and awareness then he was able to substantiate, i dont believe he freed his mind, but he was able to recognise the vail of deception that was pulled over them, this film is spirituality vs materialism on many levels. those who are still unaware of the matrix are materialist's/consumerists. those who have become aware of the matrix(which is basically becoming aware of brainwashing through tv/advertising etc) look elsewhere to define themselves as human beings, this inevitabaly leads to looking within ones self for answers and not relying souly on the external as a means of defining ones self. w's are asking the audience to recognise spirituality attained through zen, philosphophy and then onto quatum physics/mathmatics as a means of understanding the nature of reality and the universe, and discover ones place within it, which is basically the journey neo is taking.
spoonboy says:Question #1: How did you get into bed?
Question #2: If you woke up thinking the bug was a dream, what is it exactly that you believe happened that day in the office?
notabaly neo seems to be always asleep before he realises the nature of the matrix, as neo in hi sleep state is searching.
Geddes and Grosset, define ‘searching’ in Dictionary of Dreams as…
…Dreams of searching might indicate some loss in waking life, a loved one, perhaps, or ones childhood. Alternatively, it can indicate a search for a new path in life, that is a new start. To dream of searching, but not finding, may show either that what is lost forever or that the dreamer has the apprehension about finding what he or she is looking for…
Thessalonians: The First Epistle of Paul to the Thessalonians (King James Bible) states…
…But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that day should overtake you as a thief…Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of the darkness…
Sleep and darkness suggest that Neo is spiritually dead, in scripture ‘sleep’ and ‘darkness’ are used to describe a lost person, or someone who has become wayward from the right path.
Geddes and Grosset, define ‘darkness’ in Dictionary of Dreams as…
…The darkness represents the unknown and also what is depressing or even feared. However, where the darkness is dreamt of in association with feelings of warmth and comfort, it may be symbolic of a time before birth and the safety of he womb…
• Aug 05 2003 • 11:48AM
i get the feeling that this thread will also be archived at some stage, and perhaps revolutions will generate another 2000 thread discussion.
• Aug 05 2003 • 12:05PM
i think someone asked what 9:18 and 9/18 signified earlier in the thread, it is andy w's wifes birthday.
• Aug 05 2003 • 12:09PM
WachowskiBros: The mirror is actually a mirror. When Neo sees it it's a hallucination, but it's the direct result of the pill Morpheus had given Neo. Reflections in general are a significant theme in the film. The ideas of worlds within worlds. The idea of the reflection, the two Neo's in Morpheus glasses represents the two lives that Neo is leading. In the left lens, we see the blue pill and Thomas Anderson, and in the right lens, we see the red pill and Neo.
• Aug 05 2003 • 12:57PM
the w's are exploring notions of duality, and multi layerd realities.
quatum physics takes mathematics further beyond finite possibility to infinite possibility. as the w's state:- WachowskiBros: The idea of the reflection, the two Neos in Morpheus' glasses, is that this represents the two lives Neo is leading. In the left lens, we see the blue pill and Thomas Anderson, and in the right lens, we see the red pill and Neo.
• Aug 05 2003 • 1:02PM
sorry 2 posts deja vue, must be a glitch in the matrix, they must be changing something, preparing myself for the micro wave signals to the brain. the secret world government still uses micro wave signalling as a form of control, dont they? (:
• Aug 05 2003 • 1:13PM
Did anyone else relate the crash of the chopper @ the end of M1 to the attack on 9/11. I kindof saw it as a parallel.
I personally saw the red blue scene as a cross roads. So to me the reflections represented the two realities to come not the two lives he lived. He could take the blue or the red, each leading him to a different future:-)
• Aug 05 2003 • 1:50PM
Reflections in general are a significant theme in the film.
Indeed. Straight out of Alice's Looking Glass. Not only visual reflections, but thematic reflections as well (i.e. the Neo/Smith dualism). Particularly cool are the W's use of palindromes (i.e. 20:05 in "A Detective's Story", etc.)
perhaps revolutions will generate another 2000 thread discussion
Let's keep things consistent and make it 2005. :)
Another thing. Not sure if we covered this, but there are no less than two references to Adam in the first two films:
1. "Meet me @ the Adams Street Bridge."
2. "One Adam Twelve..."
Plenty room for analysis there.
• Aug 05 2003 • 5:02PM
Aright here are some more thoughts on the Adam and Eve thing. Lets suppose Merv represents Adam and Persophone represents Eve. What cool evidence do we have to support this?
1. They are un-doutably a couple of sorts. Just like Adam + Eve.
2. They are supposed to be the oldest Programs in the Matrix. Just like Adam + E.
3. The real life Merv's claimed to be direct descendents of Christ. A+E were direct descendants of god.
4. Merv and Persophone were kicked out of the matrix and now are rouge programs. A+E were kicked out of the Garden of Eden.
5. Merv and Persophone have two servants that work for them named CAIN and ABLE. A+E have two sons named CAIN + ABLE.
6. It is believed that because Cain killed Able god punished him by turning him into a vampire.
There seems to be an abundance of Vampires surrounding them in the Matrix. And the Cain and Able of the matrix may even be Vampires. (Suggested by the silver bullets killing them).
What do ya think?
• Aug 05 2003 • 5:32PM
I was sufing the web and came across this. B166ER" looks like "BIGGER":
Bigger was the name of a black character in contreversial, 1940's book, "Native Son." In the book Bigger Thomas is working for a white family (like a robot would for a human one), and accidently kills the white daughter through self preservation like B166ER
Make sure youu check out this site: http://www.matrixfans.net/symbolism/names.html
They go threw all the Names from the movie and game.
• Aug 05 2003 • 6:02PM
Re: Adam and Eve, Merv and Persephone, and that Neo guy,
Back to that topic of consumption, note the similarities between Eve persuading Adam to consume the forbidden fruit, and Persephone persuading Neo to consume the lipstick.
I suppose it could be argued that Merv does not symbolize Adam, but rather the serpent.
Cool names page btw. Tank and Dozer = Earth Machines. Nice. Here's another good one, although I haven't confirmed it:
Smith's license plate: IS 5416
Isaiah 54:16 - Behold, I have created the smith who blows the coals in the fire, who brings forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the spoiler to destroy.
• Aug 05 2003 • 11:18PM
OMG stuff is really falling in place. Ghost that stuff about Merv and Pers beeing Adam and Eve sounds very very good, nice job. In the game Enter The Matrix you do fight alot of vampires in the the Mervs mansion.
Spoon boy , that one was fucking unbeliveble , the licence plate thingie, excellent job but a question, were did you get the licenceplate number? Which scene does smith drive a car? I apparently forgotten ;D
• Aug 05 2003 • 11:49PM
Nebuchadnezzar - King of Babylon:
Daniel 2-5. He has a dream and wants it interpreted, but he can't remember what it was! Daniel tells him his dream and interprets it for him
What did morpheus say when they had to abandon the Nebb ? Anyone that can quote that ?
• Aug 06 2003 • 2:52AM
I hope you will enjoy this post folks...
What did morpheus say when they had to abandon the Nebb ? Anyone that can quote that ?
Morph said: "I have dreamt a dream but now this dream has gone from me".
This is what king Nebuchadnezzar said more or less to the prophet Daniel, who was called by king Neb's servants to interpret the dreams.
This is the interpretation: the people of Israel had all forgotten about God (or Jahweh in Hebrew) who had actually helped the israelites to take over Zion (Jerusalem) and install there the earthly kingdom of God with the Israelites as the children of God (the Zionists). Now the Israelites were not grateful anymore to God, they didn't worship him anymore since everything in there life was OK (makes me think about our current materialistic society).
God had a good plan: he sent some dreams to king Nebuchadnezzar from Babylonia. Once king Neb' would understand these dreams, it would become clear that king Neb' had to invade Israel and take over Zion to learn the Israelites a lesson and to make them alert again and make them think about God again.
I recommend you read this chapter from the bible
king Neb tells his dream about a statue with iron and bronze body parts and appearances etc... to the prophet Daniel.
Basically, Daniel says the following: that king Neb will take action (alluding to his later invasion of Zion) and become one of the greatest kings ever. After his kingdom a second, a third and a fourth kingdom will be installed but they are all temporarily.
And now comes my favorite part: after this fourth kingdom a new and final kingdom will be installed, one that is eternal, one that will never be destroyed, one that will never vanish. Daniel is one of the very important prophets who prophesies the coming of the Messiah, or if you like it The One, or indeed, Jesus, Son of Man, (in greek "man" is "Andros" or otherwise Anderson. In Matrix terms Thomas Anderson!!!).
This is not all!!
Begin counting: the initial Israelites in Zion are the first, king Neb, is the second, there comes a third, a fourth and fifth.
And then finally, the sixth kingdom is the eternal one, the coming of The One, the Messiah.
OH MY GOD!!! Freaking good references and details, isn't it? The W bro's keep surprising me.
Holding this in mind, I'm starting to believe that there were previous Ones who indeed took the right door and that we are indeed in the sixth iteration of the MAtrix.
I hope you liked this... :)
• Aug 06 2003 • 3:59AM
If you drive this further.
LAter in the book of Daniel, it becomes clear that King Neb' is so proud of himself, he is rich, he has everything... he has power... and than he gets insane... or if you want it... "out of control".
Now if king Neb would be the first One and Merv' would also be the first One (I mentioned earlier in the 931 thread about Merv's restaurant "Le vraie" meaning "The True One" in French or "The One" in the French matrix) than there is a good resemblence. Perhaps both of them invaded Zion once and than went insane from there power or in Merv's case some kind of rogue program.
I'm not sure. Anyhow, I like the link with biblical Nebuchadnezzar
• Aug 06 2003 • 6:02AM
Spoon boy, where did you get the license plate nr. from. Was it at the beginning of Reloaded right before the "it happened as before" discussion between Smith & Smith ?
I know in the MAtrix 1 his tag reads 70858. Interesting catch though on the Isaiah chapter.
• Aug 06 2003 • 9:59AM
siddarta says:OH MY GOD!!! Freaking good references and details, isn't it? The W bro's keep surprising me.
Holding this in mind, I'm starting to believe that there were previous Ones who indeed took the right door and that we are indeed in the sixth iteration of the MAtrix.
impressive research though i think we should not be suprised as all the signs are there, the w's have borrowed from so much we may never find every parrallel that they use. but this certainly suggests that what the architect says is true. therefore MwM must also be true. question - does it mention how long the previous kingdoms lasted?
• Aug 06 2003 • 10:09AM
spoonboy says:1. "Meet me @ the Adams Street Bridge."
2. "One Adam Twelve..."
one would assume a connection with adam and eve, all the place names in m1 are places in chicago the w's, where the w's were born.
i still see merv as hades more so than adam, though he could be both admittedly. persophonne was married to zeus, bore the 3 furries(3 agents) with zeus. then hades captured here, persophone, lived in the underworld(old matrix) with hades for six months, then returned to the surface creating spring and summer. I think most charactors are an amalgamation of all great literiture and religous icons. neo is the hero of a thousand faces.
• Aug 06 2003 • 10:30AM
Does anyone remember the instructions for meeting Merv for the first time? I think the time and the floor# may have significance but i can't recall exactly what the directions were.
• Aug 06 2003 • 10:34AM
there are parrellels with norse mythology also- neo/balder and smith/loki(personification of all evil), architect/odin(creator of the world) and trinity or persophone/frig mother of balder. loki instigated the death of balder only for balder to return and fight loki and his armies of evil at ragnorak(end of the world) to gain supremacy of heaven.
http://kids.infoplease.lycos.com/ipka/A0197623.html
• Aug 06 2003 • 10:40AM
all i rember about merv meeting is that the floor is 101 the same no. as neo's appartment. i think the oracle hand neo instructions and says meet at this time this place.
• Aug 06 2003 • 11:22AM
Andy (not Wachowski): When trinity jumps off the building at the start and flies through the window and ends up at the bottom of the stairs looking up, the way the window is broken is like a clock face pointing to 3 o clock, or Trinity...
that level of detail is what impressess me about this film, great website ghost.
http://www.matrixfans.net/symbolism/names.html ghost.
• Aug 06 2003 • 1:56PM
Siddarta Gouthama says:
And now comes my favorite part: after this fourth kingdom a new and final kingdom will be installed, one that is eternal, one that will never be destroyed, one that will never vanish.
Doesnt this mean that the eternal kingdom is the fifth ? Or did u just write the wrong number and ment that , after the FIFTH kingdom came a sixth one that was eternal and did not vanish ? In that case it would imply that this iteration of the matrix will not be the end of all?
Siddarta Gouthama says:
Now if king Neb would be the first One and Merv' would also be the first One...
There is a paradox in that since merv does say that he survived Neo's five other predecessors impliying that he is not a part of the 6 One's ? But that thing about his Restaurant meaning "The True One" makes me very confused, anyone that can confirm this ? Btw a really cool thing from the name page ->
Choi and Dujour :
The goth couple who come to buy software from Neo. DuJour is French for "Of the day." Choi... choir? - he did say "Hallelujah." ;) Choice? To go out or stay home, to unplug or not?
"Choix du jour" = "Choice of the day" or "Offer of the day."
• Aug 06 2003 • 1:59PM
Siddarta, re: Isaiah and the license plate,
Wasn't my observation. I read it here:
http://www.matrixfans.net/symbolism/names.html
I haven't confirmed the passage nor the scene, but I would imagine the observer pulled the plate # from either the freeway chase scene in Reloaded, or opening scenes of M1 (in front of Trin's motel and/or the garbage truck @ the phone booth?) If anybody can confirm this, please do.
On another note, you may (or may not) be pleasantly surprised that our thread is showing up 7th @ google on a search for "the matrix reloaded".
• Aug 06 2003 • 2:24PM
Hmm anyone who understands which epoch of time Detective's Story is in? It seems very odd kinda like the 60ties with hight tech stuff ? very weird dont get it really. But it's a very interesting episode if u consider the whole chess thingie i read about in the name page.
• Aug 06 2003 • 3:37PM
And the thread is showing up #1 on Google for "Matrix Reloaded discussion" now that's impressive.
• Aug 06 2003 • 3:53PM
Hey what exactly does that mean? That we are the authority on the subject?
• Aug 06 2003 • 6:53PM
Hmm anyone who understands which epoch of time Detective's Story is in? It seems very odd kinda like the 60ties with hight tech stuff ? very weird dont get it really. But it's a very interesting episode if u consider the whole chess thingie i read about in the name page.
Sajjman, the commentary on the Animatrix DVD says that when making the animations they (each of the designers/creators) went for their own personal look, while at the same time trying to keep a sort of universality about the time frame that they all take place in. IE it looks like the 60's just because whoever made it felt like giving it that sort of feel.
btw, this is in reference to what Bell was talking about w/ the oracle and her intructions on how to meet the Merv
she gives him (Neo) a peice of paper and says something similar to "Be there.. at that EXACT time and place, and you'll find him"
• Aug 06 2003 • 7:05PM
Hey what exactly does that mean? That we are the authority on the subject?
Not sure if authority has anything to do with it, but if this isn't a Matrix Reloaded discussion, there's no such thing!
• Aug 06 2003 • 7:19PM
I think the licence plate is in the opening scene when we first meet Smith. I know I froze frame on it but at the time couldn't figure the significance of the number. What was the plate on the car the team used in M1 with the swing out doors?
Whats interesting about Detective story is that the detective overcomes the morphing body snatching by the Agents and remains himself. I'm guessing its because he is strong willed. Also the second time watching it, I realized he switches seats to make it look like he shot the window to help Trinity.
• Aug 07 2003 • 1:56AM
Sajjman, on the 4th kingdom issue. Daniel reads indeed the 4th kingdom and after that one an eternal would be installed. However, he begins counting from King Neb as nr. 1. Thus, counting in the kingdom of the Israelites that king Neb overcomes, would make 5 kingdoms in total. The next (or the 6th) is then the eternal one... our sixth iteration of the matrix.
Glad to see we're so up front with google. I dunno' about the other search engines.
The license plate IS etc. from Smith is indeed at the beginning of Reloaded just before Smith hands over his earset I guess.
The license plate in M1 is AA034. The license plate of SMith in M1 is 70858.
Anybody sees something symbolic in these ones?
• Aug 07 2003 • 7:02AM
siddarta says:The license plate in M1 is AA034. The license plate of SMith in M1 is 70858.
the w's have stated that many of the numerical and visual references also have a personal meaning to themselves and their lives and not neccessarily has anything to do with the matrix.
when neo is handed smith ear piece, he says the agents are coming, how does he know this, could the ear piece serve as a warning? why does smith leave and not attack neo then and there? on the basis of neo recieving the ear piece, this does not suggest that the agents are coming. I presume that the ear piece and the arrival of the agents is unrelated, and neo just saw the matrix code showing that the agents are coming. Or was that opening scene showing neo in action badly concieved, and was just there to show action, as the w's had 30 mins + of zion coming up so they had to show neo fight someone. (cynical i know)
• Aug 07 2003 • 7:05AM
all of the animatrix animation is not a correct visual representation of events but a metaphorical representation, the same can be said of the matrix to a certain extent.
• Aug 07 2003 • 8:23AM
ive watched 2 different trailers of revolutions now, and i know they are only teasers but there is not an agent to be seen in any (maybe the roles of agents will be marginalised in m3).
• Aug 07 2003 • 11:43AM
Check out the pictures @ http://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com/. Go to News then to scroll down untill you see city chase in green. Click on that and check the pictures.
They are interesting as to what the W's included in the movie that we didn't see. Also it gives a clear picture of the plate# AL887 used in the movie.
• Aug 07 2003 • 1:25PM
As far as the licence plate IS 5416. It is from Agent Smiths car, at the beginning of the film, at the meeting.
During the Freeway chase, Trinity and Morpheus' Plate Read DA 203. This is for Daniel Chapter 2 verse 3.
Twins car: DE2852 = Deuteronomy 28, 52: They will lay siege to all the cities throughout your land until the high fortified walls in which you trust fall down. They will besiege all the cities throughout the land the LORD your God is giving you.
BD224 = book of Daniel 2-4 : 2:2 Then the king commanded to call the magicians, and the astrologers, and the sorcerers, and the Chaldeans, for to show the king his dreams. So they came and stood before the king.
2:3 And the king said unto them, I have dreamed a dream, and my spirit was troubled to know the dream.
2:4 Then spake the Chaldeans to the king in Syriack, O king, live for ever: tell thy servants the dream, and we will show the interpretation.
Just some cool stuff i picked up.
• Aug 07 2003 • 2:22PM
There was also another plate AI 751.
• Aug 07 2003 • 3:21PM
Ghost says:
There was also another plate AI 751.
Aha!
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/751.html
• Aug 07 2003 • 10:19PM
I thought of another bit of an idea the other night, and I thought I'd throw it out to see what you all think.
Based on the earlier discussions of how long it would take to populate Zion from 23 people to 250,000, and on the analogies of Neo to Jesus, I'm wondering if the time between interations of the Matrix is 2,000 years? What if when the Matrix is reset, everybody's minds are wiped (and those who can't handle it get flushed to reduce the population and start with a smaller variable number to reduce anomolies) it goes back to ancient history times and Neo takes on the role of Jesus to choose the 23 (thought it doesn't fit with the 12 apostles thing). Then it takes all of 2,000 years for Zion's population to grow to 250,000 because, sure humans are breeding and freeing minds, but they're also still being hunted and killed by squidies and other machines.
Also, by the Matrix being reset to this ancient time, it could explain odd phenomena which makes its way into religious texts, and also think of how these ancient people would intepret partially waking up out of the matrix and being put back in... maybe it's how we got our stories of what hell is like?
Anyways, it's just an idea I got while spinning thoughts around in my head.
• Aug 08 2003 • 9:17AM
ghost, good pics, i especially like the poster of burley man(m2 + m3 working title) on the side of the truck, never spotted it. though ive yet to see matrix reloaded on dvd proper.
• Aug 08 2003 • 9:21AM
can we have a consensus of what theory each of us is in favour of, MwM or other wise. the zion population keeps coming up and i think it's impossible for 2000 year to have elapsed since the last version of the matrix, especially when it's been stated(i think it was enter the matrix) that the last iteration lasted only 72 hours. what do you think?
• Aug 08 2003 • 10:04AM
The Bum that's in the trailer states to Niobe that Zion lasted 72 hours last time from that point, Not in total. So from the point they were at, in helping the path of the One, there was only 72 hours left until Zion was gone.
You know since were on the subject: In the hacking section in the game there are hundreds of images and tons of hidden features. Not to mention the fact that you can (in order) play all the video clips and story line clips from the game. At THE begining of last month I had just cracked the hacking and had all of the options opened. Then my PS2 and all my games, stereo, CDs and DVDs were stolen. I don't want a pity party. All I want is for someone else on this thread to go and play the game and fill us in on what I should have been able to.
If the W's hid all of this info in their movies there has to be an equal or greater amount in the game.
• Aug 08 2003 • 10:15AM
havent played game through yet soz. is the bum from the trailer the guy who was led out of the mervovingian place in m2? the guy who was shouting zion's going to be destroyed?
• Aug 08 2003 • 10:24AM
is the bum from m3 trailer suggesting to niobe that in the last iteration niobe helped the one? with 72 hrs to go?
• Aug 08 2003 • 11:19AM
question: have sentient robots realy enslaved the planet or is it all a complete lie? how come there arent any animals used in the pod's as a source of energy? surely they would be easier to control? humans need'nt be in the matrix to fuel the machines, they could be in coma's and generate as much power. why don't the machines use the abundance of resources on the planet coal, minerals etc.(are we to assume that all those resources are completely spent? surely the machines are advanced enough for interstellar travel, easier for them as it would be for humans? Ive come to the conclusion that the truth of what the hell is going on within the trilogy is some thing none of us have touched on! and perhaps MwM is too obvious?
• Aug 08 2003 • 11:27AM
perhaps the the machines did not win the war with humans and it is the machines that are in the matrix and zion! and the machines still think they won the war. though it is the humans decieving the machines in the matrix not the other way round - thats it!!!!!
• Aug 08 2003 • 11:30AM
the nuclear detonation at the end of renaissance part2 would have sent emp and disabled all machines. and from that point all machines are in the matrix prison, though they are still usefull to the humans as a source of power.
• Aug 08 2003 • 11:33AM
Bell: The bum was not the guy who was lead out of Merv's. However the Bum did come up to Niobe after she helped everyone escape the agents and rambled saying "72 hours", "72 hours until Zion will fall". Niobe then asks the Bum who he is and he says "Just a spectator".
Bell: I agree with Spoon Boy that the Machines cannot get rid of us. Perhaps it's like us preserving an endangered species. Or perhaps it's because we are their creators. Or because they can figure us out and they need to so they can survive.
As far as the 2000 year stuff......
Smith: "Which is why the Matrix was re-designed to this: the peak of your civilization."
This quote states that the Matrix was and is the same from beginning to end. It hasn't changed. Look at our lives today and talk to anyone. Ask them about their lives. Their lives were lived the same as ours now. Except mabey the Internet. So it can be possible that 1960 - 2060 would be an acceptable time frame.
If the matrix was programmed right no-one would ever know from reboot to reboot that this generation is the only generation.
Or even take it to the next level. 1999 - 2030. Just enough time for the Mr. Anderson to age and become the One. The environment wouldn’t change at all. It would just be people working and living Day 2 Day.
I can’t fathom the idea that the time frame could go back to 1 BC. If this were so then just like time travel things would get screwed up (kill a butterfly and a whole continent turns to desert).
IF A TREE FALLS IN THE WOODS BUT NO-ONE HEARS OR SEES IT, DOES IT MAKE A NOISE?
I think that we have to understand that just like you and I the W’s have never seen the industrial era, or WW1. They never saw John the Baptist or the fall of the Roman Empire. So in their and our eyes (In the Matrix) it’s not provable that those things ever happened.
Does anyone understand what I’m saying?
• Aug 08 2003 • 11:37AM
at the end of m2 neo created an emp burst which naturally would stop the sentinals and in turn as neo is a machine also stopped him aswell, but neo does not know he is a machine - the w's made sure trin morpheus and tank were not in the area when the emp pulse goes of or they would have been disabled to.
• Aug 08 2003 • 3:10PM
Has anyone else noticed how Cypher is on the front of the M1 dvd cover?
Now the W's are pretty thorough I can't imagine that this is just a mistake in the PR department.. so maybe this means Cypher plays a much more important role than we previously thought and will make a return in M3
I know.. not likely, but then again.. after all of this.. we really have no clue as to what's really going to happen.
• Aug 08 2003 • 11:49PM
Hey, hello to all.
Ive just found thread. I am still reading all the comments and wanna say one that is bugging me.
In the whatisthematrix.com page, philosophy says abou the very meaning of the film in the Gnostic/budhist viewpoint. And in that way, I wonder if the number 6 of Neo just means about the creation sixth day, when the menkind (the man, the ONE) was created. 6 is the numer of man. Maybe Neo is the "verymeaning" of the Matrix existence; you see, gnostic says all the creation (the first 5) were only PREPARATION for the 6.
And just the same about 6: in many numerology 6 is only induction , preparation for ... 7, the PERFECT number, the number of God, when God rejoices about all he just created.
...
Would this say about a Last One becaming? Would this mean that Neo is DYING and RESURRECTING again? or is he meant REALLY JUST TO 'AWAKE' the Last One? (are you thinking the same of me?)
• Aug 09 2003 • 12:03PM
A thought just struck my mind. Second Renaissance Part 2, in the end of the war, dawn of mankinds domination on the earth blabla :P A group of people seem to have a meeting with a robot (u know the big one with many "eyes") and they're talking about something and the robot is signing a contract of some sort and then the robot says something (does anyone remember what he says?) followed by a huge nuclear detonation (i think bell mentioned this before)... My question is , was that nuke ment to kill surviving humans or ? First time i saw it seemed kinda radical to just set of such a large nuke and eradicating the big robot (perhaps plenty more) since i couldnt really graps the idea of why they did it.
Btw there is an apple on the desk where the big robot is signing the contract, does it have to do with the apple the Leaders of 01 wanted to give the people of (NATO ?)?
• Aug 09 2003 • 2:37PM
Sajjman says:
Btw there is an apple on the desk where the big robot is signing the contract,
Hmm...can't help but think of the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden, with the serpent (robot) "cutting the deal (contract)" with Eve (mankind).
And of course, one could argue that this would be yet another reference to Adam.
Numerology fan says:
I wonder if the number 6 of Neo just means about the creation sixth day, when the menkind (the man, the ONE) was created. 6 is the numer of man. Maybe Neo is the "verymeaning" of the Matrix existence; you see, gnostic says all the creation (the first 5) were only PREPARATION for the 6.
And just the same about 6: in many numerology 6 is only induction , preparation for ... 7, the PERFECT number, the number of God, when God rejoices about all he just created.
A very cool concept. Could be. btw, this "sixth day" connection was brought up in the original thread.
• Aug 10 2003 • 3:54PM
When i saw the big-robot-scene i thought, now the humans surrender and choose to rather live in a dream world than to die in th war, but i don't get this explosion into the theory. It would be pretty stupid from the machines and from the humans to blast the contract, whatever it was, so perhaps there is a third party?
Tha apple is a symbol for the possible peace like the adam-and-eve-robots scene with the delegation from 01 before the UNO.
Another far fetched theory about the EMPing of the squiddies:
Neo changed the Matrix to stop bullets in m1 and improved it to more bullets in m2. The way a programmer handles such problems is to write a simple algorithm to do it. Neo probably hacked it very quickly in m1, but improved it to quite clever macro/script, which he could execute with any object (normally bullets). He executes the stop-script by a certain pose (nobody could imitate this, because it is a kind of biometrical avatar-specific key system). This script is deeply embbeded into the Matrix by him, for easier execution.
After the run from the exploding ship he realizes, that sentinels are connected to the Matrix as well, so they must have the shared script as well, so they must recognize the pose and execute the script, which would run it onto them. The sentinels are stopped like bullets or at least their control programs tells them so. This is just impossible in the real world for a big robot, so it trys to mimick it the best way (squiddies stop in the air), but fails, which cause some kind of execution error and they crash.
This theory has one problem i can think of now. The stopping of the sentinels like exactly like a EMP not like any kind of execution error, does it?
• Aug 10 2003 • 9:25PM
beza1e1
I kinda had the same question if u look 1 - 2 comments up ;) a third party is an interesting ideá but hmm .....
And the far fetched theory about neo's sential hax (emp blast) was... wel .. lets just say far fetched ;)
• Aug 11 2003 • 5:27AM
Bell, concerning your question what we believe. I'm a 80% believer of the MAtrix within matrix theory. I had not anticipated this, but there are simply too much clues pointing this direction.
Concerning the 'tank is wrong' issue: the very first thing that tank says to Neo is that he and his brother Dozer are 100% pure old fashioned ...humans. Thus obviously he is mistaking...
Some interesting thoughts. In the 2nd renaissance part 1 we see preparations for the conference between 01 and the human race in what I think is the UNO building in N.Y.
We see a fly entering the building and placing itself on the bronzen worldmap ... right on top of ... saudi arabia and iraq, the place where 01 was established as we saw earlier in 2nd ren. part 1. The cleaning man smashes the fly dead right on top of where 01 is located. so much attention for details, isn't it?
I watched the detective again: when he visits the crazy investigator he is standing in a chess field, the crazy one almost at the end of the play, and P.I. Ash as white pawn at the beginning of the play.
For people who are having a hard time understanding the capabilities of Smith. you can see it as some kind of copy maching and the nice thing about it is that you can actually "see" it, the copying I mean.
Remember in the beginning of M1 that Neo tries to escape from the agents at MetaCortex? He passes a copy machine that is just copying and you see this bright light. The same thing you see when Neo jumps inside Smith.
What we see has a dual meaning, not only is the gold reflection symbolism for Neo's "divinity", but you can also regard it as a copy that is made ("The-One-program-is-uploaded-theory" or "Smith-gains-limited-One-power-copies-theory")
Sajjman, I am also having problems with what you saw in 2nd renaissance part 2. Mankind is defeated during the war, than you see these negotiations, where now the robots have the power and set the rules. He says: "your flesh is ... of your ...? Hand over your flesh and a new world awaits you. We demand it!"
And than he lets explode the hole damn thing? I mean , what's the point of this? If he were to explode everything, why would he invite the humans over in the first place?
OH and by the way, for all those that believe that Neo, Trin, or Morph are machines. None of this is true. There were theories of Neo EMP'ing himself and Trin and Morph as machines were far enough not to be hit by it... None of them are machines!
At the end of M1, morpheus sets off an EMP to kill the Squids inside the Neb' and none of them are affected by it.
Just my thoughts
• Aug 11 2003 • 5:32AM
Of course it is still possible that everything is program (or matrix if you like it) including our heroes. But the only machines that we see are the squids, not Neo Trin or Morph.
• Aug 11 2003 • 8:14AM
bezale says: When i saw the big-robot-scene i thought, now the humans surrender and choose to rather live in a dream world than to die in th war, but i don't get this explosion into the theory.
it is feasable that the scene is not real and it is what humans/ai see in the matrix. remember if zion is fake, all records are also fake. plus at the end of renaissance pt2 a boy is playing in the snow seemingly post appocolypse. then we see to agents appear in the doorway of the boys house i presume, the boy intialy believe's them to be his parents. then it show that the boy is in fact in a pod and in the matrix. so a question? how much of what preceded this scene was also in the matrix?
• Aug 11 2003 • 8:51AM
assuming there was 5 previous ones, the system would surely assimilate them in some way, perhaps changing them into agents, merv etc. the oneeno graphitti during the burely brawl does suggest smith is a previous one, amnd the fact when we first see smith he acknowledges he is familiar with where he is but states things are different. i know this has been mentioned before but im solidly acknowleding what i believe to be true and im convinced smith is a different version of the one. notably in m1 trinity state to neo "you move like they do" only agents and neo and the twins move in this way so far. twins probably a stretch, forget that!
• Aug 11 2003 • 9:17AM
siddatra you are quite correct regarding the end of m1 and the emp going of, though i still think that if assuming zion is in the matrix it is still feasable that A.I. are the prisoners are occupy various vessels in the, matrix and zion. found this on the net which is a good argument and used many points that ive have brought up over the 1200 thread...
regarding the population of zion, 250'000 how do the machines know this realy... if there are manly that are true born whatever like tank, how can they send the exact amount of sentinals, if the were all A.I. in zion and the humans captures allways know how many live in robot wonderland, it makes more sense. also the time for all the zionites to be born, if they are all A.I. it does not matter if it is 2days or 1000 years all the humans need to do is preprogram the A.I. zionites and they will never no. All the central zion charactors seem to have no past, there is no memory, they all speak and interact like machines, any human behavior seem stilted and a reproduction. All i ask is watch both film again tonite whatever and just pretend that neo and co are all A.I. you will see that a lot of the diologe and wooden acting makes more sense, and gives quite a different twist to proceedings. the merv speach can be interpreted differently...
In the Merovingian's talk of cause and effect, merv said that choice was a falsehood created by those in power to keep those without power in line, to give the oppressed an illusion of control. From what the trilogy has made known so far, your first instinct would be to interpret this speech as an explanation to the possible purpose behind the Matrix: a simulated reality to keep the human cattle pacified. but say if it is the A.I. that are the pacified captive's and we look to dissect Merovingian's statement for hidden meaning, we could conversely take it to mean that the Machine has been fed this pacifying lie of its victory, tricked into believing that it is still in charge of the planet when in fact "There is no spoon".
• Aug 11 2003 • 10:17AM
points of interest though may be repeating bits mentioned previously...
courtesy of "http://www.rottentomatoes.com/forum/showthread.php?s=
149db0228662611f00e8455fa524137c&threadid=253563"
In keeping with the Book of Genesis, I'm guessing that would be Cain (Bane), as indicated by the bloody signature on his own hand -- what the Bible calls "the mark of Cain" (unspecified).
Check this webpage:
http://www.srsd.org/search/studentp...lf/grendel.html
"Aimlessly wandering through the Great Abyss through the endless rivers of time. Never finding happiness and meaning under such a confusing and brutal existence. Surrounded by infinite space and mystery but so little opportunity to break through the powerful shell of suppression. Yet on we go exploring the meandering paths of destiny into the uncertain future where only those strong enough to weave the fabric of time survive to create hope."
The first half of Grendel's life follows this poem I wrote closely. Grendel's childhood is spent "aimlessly wandering" in a very strange world where he doesn't feel like he fits in so he sets out to find what significance his existence has. When he fails in "finding happiness and meaning" Grendel curses the sky, his silent endless tormentor. With no way to channel his anger Grendel is rendered helpless against himself. The only thing he can do to treat his very distrubed mind is to spy on the humans in hope they have the answers.
When Grendel sees and hears the Shaper for the first time he wants to believe all the silken tongue lyrics he sings but is held back by his own will and experiences with the humans. He knows very well that what the Shaper sings of is false, yet its beauty and reasoning attracts him to visit over and over again like a curious child returning to an area forbidden by his parents. So with the stories of the Shaper emerges a glimmer of hope in Grendel's heart but before he can "weave the fabric of time...to create hope" the dragon intercepts.
The dragon speaks of forgotten truths and the state of null he claims life to be. Grendel is aware of the dragon's evil but allows himslf to be taken advantage of for the sake of answering his long unaswered question. After the confrontation Grendel learns nothing about the meaning of his existence and a new idea takes a strangle hold over his mind. There is no meaning to life, just as the dragon had implied. Grendel also discovers a curse the dragon put on him; weapons can't harm him. So Grendel's one escape in life, conflict with the humans, becomes dull and meaningless. So Grendel targeted the humans as the object of his rage in an attempt to regain his former self, what the dragon took from him, his human side. Thus the dragon made Grendel into a completely mindless monster. Grendel mourns this misfortune in life and when his death finally comes, he craves it, to put an end to his miserable existence.
After Grendel loses all hope he decides to wage war on Hrothgar to avenge himself and because of his own jealousy. His motive is the humans have something to cling onto in life, even if they just make it up with no proof of the certainty of it, they have a meaning to continue going on living and he doesn't which drives him to insanity.
"And out through the dull gray fog and mist he emerged only to find that he had stepped into a dark void with eternal darkness in all directions. With no hope of escape no matter what direction he went he decided to go in every direction at once and thus he burst apart."
This continuation of the fist poem I wrote explains the transition of Grendel's adjustment after his encounter with the dragon and his tradgic death. Just when Grendel was beginning to find something to believe in (through the humans) he was torn of any glimmer of hope by the dragon who quite abruptly smashed Grendel's dreams or as is said in the poem "out through the dull gray fog and mist he emerged only to find that he had stepped into a dark void." With nothing left to live for Grendel was defeated, dead on the inside, so Grendel waged his idiotic war on Hrothgar with year after year of meaningless absurdity, for what but hope he might catch the satisfaction he once yearned for before the dragon. Once Beowulf victors over Grendel, (if you really can call it that) Grendel retreats in fear of knowing his death is near. He cries for his mom, much like he did when he was trapped in a tree when he was very young and didn't know what to do because he was confused and afraid. He lived through live lonely, the last of his kind, a hermit in the sense he never had the chance to socialize with anyone else except the humans he terrorized. Sure he had a mother but he could neither communicate with her on an intellectial level nor understand her. So there he was, dying in the cold wintry forest watching the woodland creatures gather around him to bear witness to his death. He had lived miserably in life and now that an end was coming to it, despite his regrets, he embraced the cold shadow knowing the breath he held painfully in his lungs was his last.
The description for Grendel could easily apply to the machine searching for its own identity, envying mankind. Grendel was thought to be a direct descendant of Cain, and therefore the two names are commonly considered synonymous in mythological terms. Interestingly, Merovinge[sic] seems to play a part in the legend of Beowulf as well. O.O
Neo would be the hero Beowulf (or Perseus, or whatever mythological archetype you prefer) who must slay "the dragon". In psychology (such as dream analysis), dragons are the metaphoric embodiment of *everything that you need* (or need to find), typically representing a burocracy hording its treasure, which may be symbolized in the form of gold or an abducted maiden who needs rescueing. In Neo's case, the dragon-guarded treasure is forbidden information about the Matrix.
The name "Thomas (Neo) Anderson" can be taken as "doubting Thomas" of Scripture, while "andros" is Latin for man, so "Neo Anderson" could translate to "New son of man", or the Machine made in our own image.
As the messiah of our tale, Neo is "the One" chosen to repopulate the world (Zion) after the coming destruction -- our Noah, whose name is also less commonly spelt "Noe", depending on your bible.
Neo is told that he'll have to choose 23 individuals to rebuild Zion. In Genesis, there are 16 males and 7 females specified (although some of them are unnamed) in generations of the family tree that leads to the birth of Noe.
...I don't know why the Architect has reversed the gender numbering there; it could be computer-related (male/female connector slots?) or chromosomal symbolism.
• Aug 11 2003 • 10:27AM
courtesy of: http://www.rottentomatoes.com/forum/
In the world of the Matrix, the color RED represents truth. You take the red pill, you see the truth.
This is based on the apple from the Tree Of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden. (Bible story.)
Where Morpheus gives Neo the choice of pills (or should we say "the pills of choice"? ha), the chairs and other decor of the room is red. If you check the script excerpts at the official website, you'll see this scene is called "Lafayette Pills". General Marquis de Lafayette was a famous French military leader who fought alongside George Washington during the American war of independence, and later played a prominent role in the French Revolution.
In *Reloaded*, notice that some members of the Zion council wear RED, while others wear blue. Those dressed in blue may be knowing participants in the lie of the Matrix, possibly even human supervisors intermingled with the machine population, or else A.I who are still loyal to their core programming and are plotting their own "revolution" against the Red party.
the oracle also hans neo a red sweet if im not mistaken, woman in the red dress (as morpheous illustrates) reveals the deception of the matrix to neo.
• Aug 11 2003 • 10:39AM
counciler haman wears blue, he does know something. as mentioned before locke is not given a viable reason for sending 2 ships to find the neb, and if those two ships were'nt sent neo would never had reached the architect one assumes.
• Aug 11 2003 • 10:57AM
sajiman says: And the far fetched theory about neo's sential hax (emp blast) was... wel .. lets just say far fetched ;)
read this page sajiman
"http://www.rottentomatoes.com/forum/showthread.php?s=
149db0228662611f00e8455fa524137c&threadid=253563" it's not as far fetched as you may think, also way out idea's sometimes come to fruition and sci - fi/ fantasy is not exactly real life is it.
• Aug 11 2003 • 1:15PM
Siddarta Gouthama says:
Of course it is still possible that everything is program (or matrix if you like it) including our heroes. But the only machines that we see are the squids, not Neo Trin or Morph.
It's important to note that in our story, the word "machine" doesn't necessarily mean physical hardware, and is not limited to mechanical devices like Squiddies or Terminators. The true definition of "machine" extends beyond our pre-computer-era notions of the word, and can apply quite appropriately to software programs.
MACHINE: A system or device for doing work
When Morpheus describes A.I. as "a singular consciousness that spawned an entire race of machines", we can safely reword this to "a singular consciousness that spawned an entire race of programs."
On that note, when Tank describes Neo as "a machine", he means so in a figurative sense, emphasizing the degree of skill/features which he has attained through upgrades. He's not calling Neo a robot.
• Aug 11 2003 • 1:44PM
Ok.. I've got some new stuff if anyone care to give it a try.
Before i tell you i just wanna say that there is soooo much that you miss watching he movie. The W's have saturated this movie with Countless Pieces, it's impossible to take it all in.
Anyway this is from the free-way chase.
There is a huge overpass sign that says:
7th Street Downtown 4 miles
Wadison Street 4 1/2 miles
31st Street 7 miles
Then there is a small sign on the leg of a bridge:
Mansbridge Overpass
101 BW303
A huge sign says:
101 east
And another says:
Paterson Pass East Next exit
• Aug 11 2003 • 3:20PM
Thanks bell for the link, i was surprised his guy came partly to the same thoughts as me. I can't take his theory the-humans-are-machines-and-we-are-in-platos-cave like i don't believe the matrix-in-matrix stuff, but this one would satisfy me after m3. I think i have to go to the premier or someone else will get the red pill before ;)
Some other notes:
Neo can't pass out for long, because Zions destruction is just hours away and where does he lie with Bane? It can't be Zion, they would have to pass the machines to get there.
Morpheus mentions in his "prayer" that they fought for "one century" literally "100 years". If this reflects the Zion archives (from which we just know the animatrix parts), we have a time scale for the current Zion.
• Aug 11 2003 • 3:24PM
I took the nuke at end of Second Ren. to be the humans defiance of accepting the machine's terms.
Thehumans in the UN building were probably presidents/diplomats, and were of the few remaining humans left who weren't put into pods.
They probably rigged the UN building up with nukes, so that if the time ever came when machines would take it over, they could just nuke it as a last defiant step. Kind of a "captain goes down with the ship" thing.
As to the kid playing in the snow, I took this to be the machine's initial experimentations with the matrix. The kid noticed something was strange, and became aware of the matrix and the pod. This was because the matrix hadn't yet been perfected and people were not fully accepting it yet.
But, I'm probably wrong ;)
• Aug 11 2003 • 5:58PM
I'd like to hear from any Chicago people out there just to make sure we're not reading too hard into these signs. Are any of these real (and significant) street names in Chicago? Anyway,
Ghost says:
There is a huge overpass sign that says:
7th Street Downtown 4 miles
Wadison Street 4 1/2 miles
31st Street 7 miles
First thing that occurs to me is the "seventh" revolution, which would follow our sixth. That seventh is in our future, or "down the road" a bit if you will. There's also a trippy palindromic thing going on with the 7 and 4.
7th, 4 miles,
and flipped backwards,
31st (3+1=4), 7 miles.
Numerology fans out there may notice that 7 is the counterpart of 4 (as is 2 to 5, 3 to 8, and 6 to 9), but that's a whole other thread. :)
Then there is a small sign on the leg of a bridge:
Mansbridge Overpass
101 BW303
Interesting similarity to the "Adams Street Bridge" in M1. "Adam"'s bridge is "man"'s bridge.
101 and 303 are obvious. BW? Anybody?
A huge sign says:
101 east
101. Our favorite. I'll also point out that folklore has often regarded the East, where the sun rises, as life, beginning, etc.
And another says:
Paterson Pass East Next exit
There's East again. Paterson, no idea. However, we do seem to be seeing the thematic "son" suffix used more than once (Paterson, Wadison, etc.)
And btw, for those not aware of it, the 101 Freeway here in Los Angeles is the Hollywood Freeway. Another possible inside joke/reference, if nothing else.
• Aug 11 2003 • 10:18PM
When i watched "The Animatrix - Matriculated" for the first time, 2 thoughts struck me.
1. Robots can be converted ?
2. Why did the woman inside their internal matrix run away from the robot after the attack ? She seemed all frightened and scared of the robot and thus "All reality is virtual reality for a artifical mind" the robot probably thought it was "for real" and liked the feeling.
• Aug 12 2003 • 7:24AM
OK, ready for another far-fetched idea?
It started when I was reminded of a the quote for the Bioenhancement Center from the game Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri:
"We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled.
But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any
particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in
a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events
of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose
meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?"
-- Project PYRRHO, Specimen 46, Vat 7
Activity Recorded M.Y. 2302.22467
TERMINATION OF SPECIMEN ADVISED
Well, mixing this thought with: the humans winning the war and the AIs are in the simulation idea brought up by bell, the "consciousness test" idea brought up by brisvegas1, and the Neo-only-Matrix-theory brought up by beza1e1; mixing all these thoughts together and baking at 350 degress for 25 minutes, and my noodle came up with this crazy idea.
What if it's Neo that's the AI, and the only AI. What if Neo is the "singular consciousness". What if the Architect and Oracle are simply the avatars for their human counterparts outside of this Neo-only-simulation. What if they're the scientists who created the one AI (Neo), and rather than turn it lose on the world and all hell breaking loose (Terminator-Skynet-style), they decided to create this simulation, this fantasy of AI/human war in which the AI won and enslaved humanity, to see if the AI (Neo) that they created could learn to love humans?
So, too far-fetched?
• Aug 12 2003 • 12:47PM
Ok, first thing's first. Paterson. Now "paternoster" means Son of God. pater = son, noster = god. So correct me if I’m wrong Pater = son, son = son. So Paterson = son of the son. Mabey a reference to the child the Oracle spoke about.
But I was thinking about something this morning and it worked perfect, so hear me out.
The W's have put hidden meanings behind the events, numbers, graffiti, signs, license plates, and everything else. But the thing that I’m trying to figure is why.
Now think about all that hidden symbolism in the movie. Did they do it to show us something more besides their personal thoughts on the different characters and to reinforce points? Yes
But I think they also did it to show us something more.
I'm starting to think that they are saying because it's a fake world - these things exist. COINSEDENCES - I think they are saying the Tech has put these things there.
Imagine being Neo and everywhere you go you see 101 + 303. When you walk in a courtyard you see TANK LIED and ONE ONE. When Neo drives down the freeway all the license plates he sees have biblical references. This is the fake world Neo lived in. This is the Matrix.
It only makes sense because you never see 101 outside the Matrix.
What if the W's are saying that these strange cosmic coincidences are the only way for the people inside to tell they are inside?
It only makes sence becasue they couldn't put it thier just for the fans becasue when it came out it had no fans.
Am I losing it?
• Aug 12 2003 • 1:05PM
For all of you who have asked "am I losing it?"
the answer is yes.. yes you are
• Aug 12 2003 • 1:21PM
Old_Gobbo says:
For all of you who have asked "am I losing it?"
the answer is yes.. yes you are
Yeah, well, you'd be losing it too if you were going insane.
• Aug 12 2003 • 1:21PM
Uh?! Pater = son??? Pater = father!
Paterson = Son of the father
Paternoster = Our father
Your theory is nice, Joe, but it is a lot of work to create such a world. Just for testing an AI?
I like all this new crazy theories, because i think the W's will end the triology with something mind-boggling like Neo is a machine or Neo is the only human.
Sajiman:
1. Why not, training neural networks is already common today. I think it would be much simpler to reprogram the robot, but you would have to know much about its internals to do that, so driving him crazy and format his orders this way is a nice idea.
2. She flys from the attack of the machines, looses consciousness and awakes within a Matrix. Then a machine reaches out for her (friendly but a machine). I think she just wents crazy then ... but i can't understand why the robots sits at the shore, where she sat before, in the end.
• Aug 12 2003 • 4:20PM
The robot sits at the shore because it is lamenting the woman.
• Aug 12 2003 • 5:22PM
How can you not go crazy knowing that there is still 83 days, 6 hours, 36 minutes, and 6 seconds Eastern Time? No wait there's now 83 hours, 6 hours, 35 minutes, and 56 seconds. Hold on 83 days, 6 hours ........................... yeah I've lost it.
• Aug 12 2003 • 6:30PM
beza1e1 says:
I like all this new crazy theories, because i think the W's will end the triology with something mind-boggling like Neo is a machine or Neo is the only human.
So you must accept one of the flavors of the "matrix-in-matrix" theory, in which case Zion is not the real physical world. How could either of those two scenarios work if Zion was real? They couldn't. Think about it. Your two scenarios could only happen in a virtual world. Otherwise, you're concluding that (a physical) Zion is either a population of cyborgs with a human named Neo, or a population of humans with a cyborg named Neo.
In a virtual world, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for one person to be human and everybody else machines, nor could one person be a machine and all others human. A virtual world, by definition, contains nothing real in a physical sense.
• Aug 12 2003 • 8:01PM
beza1e1 says:
but i can't understand why the robots sits at the shore, where she sat before, in the end.
When se sat at the shore she was there for one sole purpose , to attract robots so she could capture one, right ? Or show her superiors that she could beat one of them (or something along these lines), maybe they wanted to flip this idea that now when the robot is converted he is sitting there to .... do... something ;D What the fuck cant come up with a good answer but maybe the robot now after beeing converted is like a human and is now sitting there waiting to be located by a robot , but the woman is there by him .... dont know really , anyone ?
• Aug 13 2003 • 4:58AM
She does not sit beside the robot, so what happened to her? Is she the only survivor and trys to rebuild the robot-capture-and-convert facility together with the last friendly machine? Did she went crazy and the machine protects his new friend from other evil machines?
I rewatched Reloaded yesterday. I think the philosophy part does not have the elegance of part one. In m2 much high-level speeches were thrown into the audience. In m1 there were simple sentences, which provide lot of speculation: "What's really going to bake your noodle later on is, would you still have broken it [the vase] if I hadn't said anything. "
When Neo stops the sentinels there is no EMP, just some sparkles and noise, then Neo and the sentinels fall down and in this moment (!) another ship arrives.
I more and more believe the Neo, Smith and Trinity Trio saves the day in the end. All three died and came back. All three have a outer Matrix and a inner Matrix being.
From the trailer we know that Neo will fight Smith in the Matrix again, but it is a fair duell (it seems). Why should they do that? Either Neo needs something from Smith and Smith demands a duell (like Persephone a kiss) or they are both competitors for something (Trinity, the Source, ...?)
The prophecy was a lie Neo tells us, but for whom? For the oracle, the keymaker and the agents as well? The Merovingian tells he survived Neo predecessors, so he must know more. At least he survived the reboots as well.
In the end we know the plan of the machines/architect: False prophecy to get the One and destroy Zion. He tricked the One, now the rebells have 24 hours to trick the Architect somehow.
m1 was about reality, m2 was about choice, m3 is about?
These are the things which circle around my head, but i can't mix them up to one theory ...
• Aug 13 2003 • 9:25AM
siddarta says: regarding the emp blast at the end of m1, (this scene warrants closer inspection). note when the blast goes of, trinity falls on neo who is layed down. Admittedly this could be interepreted as trin covering neo from whatever. but it is morpheos's reaction that got my attention. as when the blast occurs his body language mimicks that of the sentinal, initially it looks as though morpheos is ducking, but the sentinal falls beneath him and he continue to react as if effected by the emp blast.
then when that scene ends, the screen goes blank for a while, any amount of time could have passed (who knows?) then the screen shows trinity rise her head up as if awakening from a sleep/coma. and there is also no evidence that an emp has gone of a few seconds ago. my guess is that the A.I./machines neo/morph/trin were out for some time. (i advise you to watch it in slow motion several times, you'll be suprised) :)
• Aug 13 2003 • 9:31AM
They are all about Destiny and Fate.
M1: Neo finds the Path and his Fate/Destiny is set into motion.
M2: Neo has to Make choices that will lead him to his destiny and understand why he makes the choices he will.
M3: Neo will fulfill his destiny because he believes there is no way no to. Or he will decide that he does not believe in that "Fate Crap".
The reason there is so much talk about choice is because Neo is struggling with the idea that he doesn’t have choices. He doesn’t want to believe that the outcome of his existence is pre-planned. The fact that the Oracle told him that the choices had already been made and that he has to understand the "why" is a copout. She couldn't just come out and say you don't have a choice because your a program and we do what we are put here to do.
• Aug 13 2003 • 9:34AM
morpheus states in his speech to the zionites that the war has lasted 100years (presumebly they were programmed to believe this amount of time had passed), you are talking 2000 years and then some for 250'000 zionites to be born, the numbers just dont add up , unless the 250'000 werent born at all and are just A.I. or machines(or a mix of humans and machines), that would explain the time contradictions that occur throughout the films.
and how the hell does whoever sent the sentinal to zion 250'000(one for each supposed human) know the exact amount of humans when some are supposed to be true zion bred humans whatever, is hammanm and the council giving the exact population figures to the controller of the sentinals?
• Aug 13 2003 • 9:40AM
neo has no choice whilst in the matrx/zion, whilst he is interacting with lemmings such as morpheous and trin as they are being manipulated into manipulating neo , but they are completely oblivious themselves, its all lies upon lies upon lies upon bigger lies and so on... every thing in the matrx is so contrived that the egotistical merv has no choice realy as one would assume he is just fullfilling his program, though he does not know that as he believes he has attained a level of freedom himself in the matrix, perhaps he was programs to believe he would become an exile!!!!!!!!
• Aug 13 2003 • 9:55AM
the w's are playing with us big style; watch the scen in m1 when trin is on a motorcycle looking through her wing mirror at neo being led into a car by smith. in this scene a women in a red dress walks by trin you see her 2 more times in this scene but it is different woman each time and her red outfit changes each time. and also pay close attention the the shop/roads signs, they keep changing as this small scene pans out. (watch in slow motion) - you would think ive got something better to do than scrutinise m1/m2 to death but i think the matrix has me!
t3 was o.k. worth watching for effects, story a bit by the numbers
• Aug 13 2003 • 10:01AM
I said: and how the hell does whoever sent the sentinal to zion 250'000(one for each supposed human) know the exact amount of humans when some are supposed to be true zion bred humans whatever, is hammanm and the council giving the exact population figures to the controller of the sentinals?
i'll answer my own question, because zion is'nt real, im tying my self in knots with what this film is churning out, 83 days till revolutions, ouch! dont think i can wait that long...
• Aug 13 2003 • 10:20AM
ghost regarding street names and places, in the w's interview 99, posted every where on the net it would seem, the w's state that all place names are in chicago.
• Aug 13 2003 • 10:29AM
Enter the Matrix:
When you encounter the Oracle as Niobe you hear a very interesting thing. The Oracle tells Niobe that Neo is trapped somewhere between the real world and the matrix. Now she doesn't use quite those words.
from a comment of http://www.scottmanning.com/archives/000524.php
I don't think the trapping took place at the architect, because the machines can't simulate Link and the Nebuchadnezzar (No Matrix in Matrix!), but what about having Minimatrix for Neo and Smith? Smith mentioned a special bound between them, somehow (i will think about) this spawn a personal Matrix for them, when Smith comes near to Neo. When Smith was near enough Neo collapses, looses consciousness and enters the personal Matrix. So his collaps has perhaps nothing to do with stopping the Sentinels.
What would this two antagonists do, if captured into a small Matrix? Right, fighting like hell, so watch the trailer ;)
Somwhere else the commentator i quoted above tells, that Trinity has to save Neo. Niobe and Ghost have to choose wether to help her. Can somebody proove the quote?
Another one mentioned the W's would have said: m1 is about the birth of the hero, m2 about the life of the hero, then m3 must be about the death of the hero.
Another far fetched idea:
In the end of m2, everybody agrees the prophecy is a lie, but perhaps it is true and Neo entered the trap-matrix before he came to the Architect. So if he wasn't yet really there, the prophecy must not be wrong yet.
• Aug 13 2003 • 11:16AM
one other thing; when you see smith in m3 trailer grinning his head of, smith seems to be in the oracles kitchen from m1(pink cupboards etc.)... ive thought about this and it seem's unlikely the oracle would return there if she is on the run from merv and co. so has smith gone back in (matrix time) time????????
beza1e1 says:
Enter the Matrix:
When you encounter the Oracle as Niobe you hear a very interesting thing. The Oracle tells Niobe that Neo is trapped somewhere between the real world and the matrix. Now she doesn't use quite those words.
from a comment of http://www.scottmanning.com/archives/000524.php
read this i found it is right at the start of this thread mate...
Bell says:
well i found this on the net, as did the person before me it would seem. Beware this could be true...
***********Spoiler Start***************
Okay, Neo's in Matrix "limbo" - somehow his mind got "jacked in" to a train
stop outside the Matrix - the wild eyed guy in the Rev. trailer is the train
man, controlled by the Merovingian. The Oracle tells Trin and Morph this and
they threaten Merv (you're willing to die for this man?) continued above at start of this thread...
• Aug 13 2003 • 11:25AM
No i don't believe it. It just drifts away the more you read ...
• Aug 13 2003 • 11:45AM
i dont believe it either, but it touches on the point you made about the half way point between matrix and zion, though the rest of the premise gets daft admittedly.
just watched m3 trailer again and it is definately 100% the oracles kitchen that smith is in when he is grinning his head of, same tiles, pink cupboards, cupboards handles are the same etc, this could be a major plot point, and smith is clearly a couple short of a six pack. a stretch i know! but has smith gone back to m1 when neo is speaking to the oracle for the first time...
• Aug 13 2003 • 1:00PM
Bell says: "the half way point between matrix and Zion"
That point that the Oracle spoke about Niobe is because just like Smith Went out of the Matrix into a body. Neo went out of his body into the matrix. His mind or sense of being (consciousness) is in the Matrix but his body is sustained outside. This may be another testament to the MWM theory.
• Aug 13 2003 • 4:09PM
I've read much of this, so apologies if I missed something about what I'm going to ask. Has anyone every wondered why Morpheus et al trust the Oracle in the first one? I mean...if they thought she was human, wouldn't they wonder where she was jacked in? When I first saw the movie, I automatically assumed she wasn't hardwired (as in, still connected to the matrix) since then agents could take her over as with anyone else still connected. SO I just figured she was just another citizen of Zion who was freed earlier. If Morpheus knew that she wasn't in Zion (how could he not?), and he MUST have figured that she couldn't still be attached to the matrix, what did HE think she was? It seems that in Reloaded, Neo 'guesses' that the Oracle is a program based on his reasoning, and possibley having just seen Seraph in gold code, perhaps he see's her that way also and makes the connection, or whatever...he obviously is just throwing out an idea to her, he doesn't KNOW for sure at that point. It seems that Neo is the first to figure this out about her, so again...why did Morpheus just trust her? Why are the 'potentials' at her apartment? I don't know that answer to these, these aren't rhetorical questions...it's possible that they just haven't supplied us with the information that would explain this, but to me it seems that they just messed it up a little in the time they wrote the next movie (yes, I know that they pretty much had the whole three movie story all ready when they made the first one, but there must be re-writes of the script to be sure, even if you don't believe that one circulating around, and so perhaps they just missed this gap). If anyone has any theories that fit ALL the facts, then let's hear 'em...
• Aug 13 2003 • 4:24PM
I was actually just toying around with that idea this morning. I think the answer is that the Oracle probably told the people of Z10N that she wasn't involved in the agenda of the machines. That's basically what she told Neo.
Neo: But why help us?
The Oracle: We're all here to do what we're all here to do. I'm interested in one thing, Neo, the future. And believe me, I know - the only way to get there is together.
Either she is programmed only to help the people of Z10N find the one so he could reinsert the Prime Program, or she was originally programmed to do that and eventually saw that the people of Z10N could beat the system somehow and is now following that path.
You Choose what to Believe......
• Aug 13 2003 • 4:49PM
That helps a little, good reasoning anyway, but my main discomfort came from that idea that we never learn of independant programs UNTIL the second one. As I said, perhaps Morpheus explained that to Neo 'offscreen' as it were, but we can't KNOW that. It seems that Morpheus and Trinity have never seen types like Merov, Pers, et al, but that doesn't prove that they aren't aware of programs either. It's probably safe to assume that they knew the Oracle was a program, but Morpheus says: 'she's very old, she's been with us from the beginning' or some such thing, so it's ambiguous. I would imagine that if they knew she was a program (and possibley that woman who answers her door...the other person who betrayed the Oracle to Merov along with the blind lobby guardian?) then they'd have mentioned it to Neo at some point, right? They have a whole agent training program, so why not an independant program trainer also? Again, perhaps they just didnt' show us in the first one since the agents are more predominant. But they also say that the agents hold all the keys, etc, etc in M1, and we know that that's even LITERALLY not true now. I'm of the opinion that either it's just a plot mix up, or that you're right Ghost, and that she did tell them she was a program, but convinced them she was 'good'. I WANT to believe the second one, but there isn't much evidence to back it up...except of course that they DO trust her...ipso facto, they MUST know her identity.
• Aug 13 2003 • 5:12PM
Once again this is my opinion and probably only mine. But could it be possible that they saw her more as a mystical character. Somewhat of an individual who is blessed with special powers, or a messenger from god? I mean If Morph thought that the Prophesy was a mystic event brought on by powers outside machine/human control, wouldn’t he have related the Oracle to that power? Either way if she told them she was a rouge program it would make more sense. And it's still to be told what side she’s really is on. Does she want the people of Z10N to succeed and not just start the 7th matrix? That's what Morph would believe.
• Aug 13 2003 • 5:29PM
Another thing, and this sorta ties into my previous entry, but every keeps making a big deal about Seraph, and how he is yellow/gold rather than green. Again, perhaps it is discussed above, but I didn't notice it...isn't it possible that one of the ways Neo guesses that the Oracle (if indeed he's guessing, which his voice sounds to be doing when he is conversing with the Oracle) is a program is because she's also glowing gold? Could all the programs glow gold if they're independant like Seraph? Perhaps they just didnt' show us Neo's point of view for any others because we were supposed to assume that, or for any number of reasons...perhaps they just didn't think we needed more of those hints. It's certainly possible that Seraph IS the only one to do that, but there are other clues too, I just have to go see the movie again...hehehe. Agents wouldn't glow gold because they are still apart of Matrix, eh? (do agents EVER have their own coded bodies? We haven't seen them.) All I have is questions...even my answers don't convince me...
• Aug 13 2003 • 5:41PM
While I agree that her motives are certainly still up in the air...it's the fact that we don't 'hear' about her being a rogue program. All the words spoken about her in the first one are ambiguous (good for the W Bros, or this point would be even MORE of a sore spot), so it leaves it open that she might have explained that part of herself to Morpheus and whomever else. This just points to my earlier idea that it was just a writing thing...they must have wanted to keep the idea of rogue programs out of the first movie so as not to mire us down with too much info, but then they failed to explain to us the nature of the Oracle's 'revealing' of herself in M2. Again...you're most likely right Ghost, but this still grates on me...I'd rather have it an oversight on the W's part than just forcing us to assume that she's explained all this to Morpheus. In M2, the ideas aren't as ambiguous with this though...it IS obvious that Neo didn't know she was a program. 1) Morpheus might have left it out, 2) No one knew that she was. Either way has some support from the facts, but not ALL the support.
I like the idea of Morpheus believing her to just be some 'divine' tool for him to use, but Morpheus seems to be the type to balance his spirituality and his reasoning skills. He certainly waxes philosophic a lot, but he also knows how to deal with actual situations. I think that the character of Morpheus that we've seen in the movies would be the type to doubt anything that was within the matrix as his first response, whether she wow'd him with a prophecy or not. Also, he's probably not the FIRST one to contact her (all previous matrices aside), so someone probably took him to see her at one point also. This then just circles us back to the idea that she MUST have told them, or they'd not trust her simply for her being hard wired into the matrix and a potential agent (if she was a human, which is the only other thing they would think of her as). It's all so much more confusing than I thought earlier today...8^)
*Can a computer imagine a perfect circle if Pi is infinite?***
• Aug 13 2003 • 5:58PM
"About Seraph, and how he is yellow/gold rather than green."
Read the above thread. I wrote my theory that the code is from a different version of the matrix.
"Even my answers don't convince me..."
Join the club, Damm W's.
"I think that the character of Morpheus that we've seen in the movies would be the type to doubt anything."
I think that he wouldn't doubt. He would look at everything and make it fit into his Box of beliefs on reality. No matter how hard it was to fit. Somewhat delusional. That's why it's possible the Oracle was never questioned from the leader of the resistance.
"her being hard wired into the matrix and a potential agent."
Mabey she pulled a Neo and left her body behind?
• Aug 13 2003 • 6:15PM
Well, don't take phrases and think that's my whole point...hehehe. As far as hard wired...she'd still have to explain THAT, 'pulling a Neo' as you say, instead of her being a rogue program. So back to square one. I find it almost pointless to theorize about possibilities unless we can come up with a few facts from the movies (facts enough for us I guess), so I'm just looking for any SOLID stuff for this particualr idea...tha's all...8^)
As for the code: gold/yellow...your idea makes sense, but my point was that it wasn't ONLY Seraph as gold, but that we as an audience, for concious or unconcious reasons, were not shown Neo's point of view for any other character that we knew of as a sentient program except Seraph. This could still mean that all other rogue programs (would they ALL be from previous matrices?) have gold for the same reason Ghost, but also simply because they are independant code...
• Aug 13 2003 • 6:18PM
As for Morpheus and his belief, didn't he come up with that 'box' of a lifequest AFTER talking to the Oracle? I would imagine so. We don't know THAT either though...his knowing he would find the one could have put him into a 'blind' believer, but that doesn't preclude my idea...only if Morpheus was ALWAYS like that would he simply buy into the Oracle no matter what...but again...why not tell Neo? or anyone for that matter? Back to whether or not we just don't SEE it, but back again to Neo being surprised in M2...we're getting there...I can feel it...8^)
• Aug 13 2003 • 7:51PM
About something that was mentioned earlier...'those who can dodge bullets'. Well, not to get inot WHY Neo can stop them (a whole 'nother thread)...but perhaps the only reason we see agents, and Neo of course, dodging bullets, is that when guns are fired, it's impossible for the matrix to predict where the 'non-matrix-controlled' person, such as Neo or Trinity, is going to shoot, but once the bullet leaves the gun, isn't it sorta being controlled by the matrix? FOr someone to get hit by it, it would have to exist within the matrix, even if the construct program of the Neb created the guns, and those aren't always the guns they use anyway, the association with reality, at least for those getting hit (ie- the coppertops, etc), would have to come from the matrix, n'est pas? So an agent can dodge because the matrix is telling them 'exactly' where the bullet will be, and despite it being humanly impossible (Morpheus says that agent's, while extreme, must follow the rules of the matrix), the matrix assists the agents in avoiding a 'predictable' path...while in the kung-fu fights, the agents can be faster than even Trinity or Morpheus might imagine themselves to be, but they can't PREDICT, like with the bullets. So when Neo comes to his big realization, or whenever Morpheus or Trinity actually get a hit in on an agent, it's because their moves are NOT predictable. I didn't mean this to connect with the MwM theory, but it COULD be said that this shows that there really IS a real world, since the Matrix cannot save the agents from certain types of damage; like the kind it can't predict (ie-bullets). I'm sure there's a counter arguement that can also include my other idea, but now I can't believe that I'm actually expressing 'theories' instead of just pointing out gaps...*sigh* am I a believer now? 8^)
• Aug 13 2003 • 8:38PM
RYUUYR says:
Has anyone every wondered why Morpheus et al trust the Oracle in the first one? I mean...if they thought she was human, wouldn't they wonder where she was jacked in?
As a viewer, I always saw the Oracle as a software program. The idea that she was a jacked human with prophetic skills didn't make a whole lot of sense. One of the things that hit me hardest in M1 was the scene where the Oracle gave Neo a cookie. The symbolism contained in that scene was astounding when we compare it to our contemporary Information Age:
1. Oracle is the largest database company in the world today, bar none. The most robust and dependable information sources on the Net (google, yahoo, msn, ebay, etc.), are all driven by a backend that incudes an Oracle server. "Software powers the Internet." In our story, the Oracle is representing a database. She knows all. She is the source of information. She will tell you exactly what you need to hear.
2. A cookie, in techno-speak, is a software component that a web server will attach to your browser for behaviour tracking and future identification. This information (on large web applications) would typically be stored in the (Oracle) dbase.
So, when the Oracle gave Neo a cookie, it was probably one of the coolest things I've ever seen.
*Can a computer imagine a perfect circle if Pi is infinite?***
lol. Good one. How about,
**If an intelligent software program doesn't realize it's only a software program, can it identify other software programs?**
• Aug 13 2003 • 8:42PM
ps: Well, maybe not msn. :)
• Aug 13 2003 • 9:01PM
Ok Spoonboy, like I said I have read your posts...you post SOOOO much...hehehehe. I disagree with your all encompassing theory from all your previous postings however...you seem too much like Morpheus believing the prophecy...no matter what we say, it's either wrong, or it goes along with your idea...hehehe. I'm joking of course...you have the most thought out ones...along with others, and that's for sure. As for cookies...if you really saw her as a program right off the bat, then you are indeed inspired...even WITH the cookie hint, which I have seen before, but which I read from you in the archive. I certainly see the significance, especially since learning more about computers in the last year, but my whole point was more of a possible production problem. This is based on the fact that no one ever 'says' that she's a program until Neo, seemingly, guesses it. I say he guesses it because he appears not to KNOW for sure, but the whole interaction with he and the Oracle in M2 is confirmation of course. In M1, you'd think someone would 'say' something. That's why I assumed she was a human in Zion, or on another ship (actually I figured, based on my ignorance of further examination, that she lived in some area within broadcast range, but not in Zion). It all makes sense NOW of course, but my whole issue is with the fact that in M2 it all seems that these rogue or sentient programs are a new thing to the citizens of Zion, Morph, Trin, et al...but something they can accept with little reaction (for whatever reasons you wish). In M1 though, as I've said above, it seems post facto to be simply a wish not to include a further thing for us to think about into the first installment by the filmakers. And even then, that's only if you believed that she was a program from the start. You COULD say that the cookie clue is their hint of being a program...but even some computer guys might not make that leap. It's devious for sure, but then we come to this: even though the clue was there...and some, like yourself, judged correctly, why is Neo surprised in M2? Again, as I've said above, I believe that he sees all programs NOT tied to the Matrix as gold/yellow code, but that the movie only shows us one example (Seraph). He puts that together with some other ideas he has, and makes a guess, he's right of course, but the fact that he guesses means that he didn't know already. If he didn't know, it's POSSIBLE that Morpheus didn't know either. Morpheus could be hiding something of course, but that's what I'm trying to understand. But IF Morpheus DIDN'T know, then why would he just TRUST her? An automatic reaction to something in the Matrix would seem to be that it's either someone from Zion 'jacked' in, or someone in a pod. This is just from M1 of course...we don't know otherwise until M2, as an audience of course. Suppositions aside, it wasn't OBVIOUS that there were rogue/sentient programs other than agents until M2 anyway. WHY would Morpheus put his trust, and why would any people before Morpheus (but within the same version of the Matrix as Morpheus) put their trust in someone who must either explain their identity as a sentient program, or must be connected to the matrix and therefore 'agent-bait', when we haven't seen any proof that there was any explanation of being a program??????? It's long winded...I'm sorry...just trying to be precise in my explanation...nothing worse than an extended idea that's based on a misconception...hehehehe. 8^)
***I can imagine a perfect circle because my mind doesn't construct ideas conciously through mathmatics, so does a computer have the same ability?***
• Aug 13 2003 • 11:56PM
RYUUYR says:
***I can imagine a perfect circle because my mind doesn't construct ideas conciously through mathmatics, so does a computer have the same ability?***
It cannot be proven that the circle you're imagining is perfect. I do like the question though. :)
why is Neo surprised in M2?
It didn't occur to me that Neo was surprised. I'll need to watch it again. I'm about due.
no one ever 'says' that she's a program until Neo, seemingly, guesses it.
Or realizes it.
I honestly didn't think the idea of the Oracle being a computer program was so far-fetched. By the time we meet the Oracle in M1, we have already learned about what the Matrix is. We've seen Neo break out of the pod, we've seen the Neb, we've gone into the simulation program with Morpheus for the PowerPoint presentation, we've seen the woman in the web dress. We've also met the Agents, who we by now know are software programs which are manifested into virtual bodies within this virtual world in which jacked folks interact with. The idea that the Oracle was also a virtual entity didn't seem that much of a stretch.
I do understand the nature of your question. You're concerned with what the characters are thinking. From their point of view. Good question.
I don't have an answer. But I do think you're probably the perfect person to answer a questions I've posted a couple times here, with no direct responses. Question #3 below is similar to your question, as it concerns what Neo is thinking about what has happened to him.
Here goes:
In The Matrix, Neo gets taken in by the agents for questioning. Not a good time. His mouth disappears and an electronic organic creature burrows itself into his navel, worming it's way inside...
...screaming, Neo bolts upright in bed. He takes inventory on his mouth and abdomen and realizes it was a dream. Or so he thinks?
We do know that the bug existed on the same plane of reality as his waking state, as Trinity removed it a bit later in the car. It can therefore be concluded that the interrogation wasn't a dream. Neo found that surprising. "That thing's real?!?!"
Questions:
1. How much time elapsed between the interrogation and waking up in bed? Is it the same night? Is it weeks later? Does Neo know?
2. Knowing what we know now, how do you suppose he got into bed? The last thing we saw was him flat out on the desk with the creature burrowing. Then he wakes up in bed. What happened between the desk and the bed?
3. Neo's surprise in the car clearly indicate that he didn't believe that the Agent/creature incident actually happened. He was therefore wrong. After Neo woke up, felt for his mouth, and concluded that the Agent/creature incident was a dream, what do you suppose he believed happend in the office on that crazy day where he was out on the ledge? Does he remember? If so, what?
Bake on...
• Aug 14 2003 • 1:30AM
As I have said before, I am not here to suppose...hehehehe...of course I am...:
So, I will say that I doubt every theory here...all, or rather, most, are great, but none fulfill ALL the major evidence. I have no theory, that is why I am asking questions...any theories I propose are false...hehehehehe..
My bakèd noodle says: the question of Neo's apparant delusion, aka: his waking up to the 'post worm-in-the-naval thingy'...he most likely experienced the agent's invasion, so therefore, it's likely that they took him home. Problems: why would they take him home and not kill him? Why not erase his memories of the whole experience.???
These questions cannot be ansereed by me...I'm just asking them.
Many have answeres to those questions...these still are lacking. I think the architect wanted the ONE to get the source, but still...why wait all that time then? There must be a certain moment when he can predict where the ONE isgoing to be...
this is good night, so please, be gentle...hehehe...I'll c u all 2 morrow...
***whether I can imagine a real perfect circle, or an imagined perfect circle, what's the difference??? Can a computer really imagine even a 'pretend' perfect circle??? No...that's why the One needs to be reinserted...lol...how simple is that??? I'm drunk and tired...please tell me I'm waaaaaaaay off........................8^)
• Aug 14 2003 • 1:37AM
I'm sorry I cannot answer better, perhaps when I think upon the question, then I'll be able to give an answer...a possible answer. Give me a few hours...I'll work out something...8^)
• Aug 14 2003 • 3:12AM
I think everybody here has read the Matrix final script more than 100 time :-P but... have you read the PREVIOUS versions of the plot? I fyou want to, here is my page It is very interesting to find, by example, that the Ws in the 96 script include Cypher and Morpheus telling Neo about the previous 5 Ones(!).
Have fun.
• Aug 14 2003 • 3:18AM
sorry about the page :( Maybe I was tricked by it? Its too slow to load
...or maybe the Agents have found it and deleted just to keep the truth off.
Insanitys. Just emailme to send them to you.
• Aug 14 2003 • 4:13AM
Thanks NumerologyFan, but you should have said it is in the 1997 script, but not the 1996 one. Would have saved some reading time, though the rest is very interesting, too.
Here is a piece, but Morpheus talks a lot more:
NEO
And you still believe I'm the One?
MORPHEUS
Yes I do.
NEO
Yeah? What about the other five
guys? The five before me? What
about them?
Morpheus tries to hide his heart being wrenched from his
chest.
NEO
Did you believe in them too?
MORPHEUS
No. I did not. I have never told
anyone this, Neo. After I saw the
Oracle I thought... no, I
misunderstood what she told me. I
believed that it was all about me.
That I would find the One, not that
he would find me.
The real question is now: Did the W's change just the script afterwards or the whole story? Did Morpheus choose the five other Ones in the Matrix universe we experienced in the cinema or is this script obsolete?
If we take this facts into the theories, we can't see the Architect as allknowing god, but as a very subjective master control program, which would make him more a laughable little devil, than a real enemy.
• Aug 14 2003 • 4:15AM
It worked just fine for me ... as you see above
• Aug 14 2003 • 10:57AM
Does she want the people of Z10N to succeed and not just start the 7th matrix? That's what Morph would believe.
the oracles primary goal it would seem is to prevent the matrix from being destroyed, she mentions this to neo in m3 trailer that in order to save the matrix, he(smith) must be stopped.
morpheus has been manipulated by the oracle, manipulated in order to set neo on the path to his eventual meeting with the architect. I dont believe morph knows the oracle is a program, though he ,may have been manipulated into beleving her to be human, a human with a great deal of insight. the oracle must have pulled a few tricks to convince him. then again when someone is so utterly lost and helpless against a aggresser that seems invincible an indivdual (morpheus) is most vulnerable and can be convinced of anything. if zion is in the matrix it is safe to assume that morph was nurterd by the matrix to fullfill his role, the role that comes to pass of believing in the prophesy and finding the one.
• Aug 14 2003 • 11:17AM
But bell, what could the Oracle POSSIBLY say to Morph, even given that he's prone to delusions when it comes to his destiny (did he even believe the prophecy before meeting the Oracle?), to convince him that, if she was saying she was human, she wasn't going to turn into an agent any second??? Morpheus has his beliefs, but he knows the possibility of danger when he sees it, and his blindness can only go so far. I can understand that unless the person can't believe what they see, the agents most likely won't notice anything through their earpieces, but still, is that all she'd have to say to Morph and all the others? It's possible...but I think that she'd HAVE to explain her existence as a rogue program that would help them...I'm sure she could convince him of that...but then there is evidence of them NOT knowing anything about programs other than the agents. That supercedes any possibility of the humans knowing that she is one...in the early script, it gives the impression that she's a human connected to the matrix through this 'temple of zion' thing...somehow not on a ship but still within broadcast range, but it's only am impression, it doesn't say either. Too many questions...I hate when the only explanation is either really crazy or a writing/production flaw...*sigh* I hope that isn't the case here...
• Aug 14 2003 • 11:17AM
i believe all main protaganists to be non reactive due to the fact that they are either A.I. or machines or programs. Neo is reactive, there is no input on his part, neo is basically a donkey led by a carrot. the main protaganist's seem to take every thing at face value, and if that proves to wrong they except the new truth readily if it fits within the parameters of the prophesy of the one, as they have been utterly brainwashed into believing in the prophesy. what morph percieves as fate, is in truth all encompassing control. everything that happened in m2 was meant to happen it is all by design.
niobe: how do you know this
keymaker: it is my purpose to know, its why im here, its why we are all here.
question? does the keymaker think or know he is addressing other programs in this scene? as by design the keymaker helps neo it is his purpose, so in turn every one a party to helping neo reach the architect is also there by design.
i think it was spoonboy who asked this, regarding neo waking up after interigation. as neo is still connected to the matrix (though i still think he is connected) time is fragmented, the matrix would have placed him back in his room in order to confuse him into thinking he was only dreaming when the bug was placed inside him. remember neo is not the primary target of the matrix in this plot strand, they bug neo in order to find morpheus. Though i believe this tracking down of morpheus is part of an elaborate plan to gently nudge neo into beleiving in whatever speal/bullshit morpheus tells him. m1 is all about manipulating neo into buying into the prophesy of the one as that is the first step toward reaching the architect. so anything that happens in m1 is really all about neo, it is an ingenius and dense elaborate set of directives that are designed to manipulate neo/anomoly, the w's are very clever people, though not as clever as me...
• Aug 14 2003 • 11:24AM
ryuuyr, the beauty of m1 and m2 at this stage is that u can theorise indefinately hence this forever increasing thread, though im sure the outcome will encompass most of what we have talked about. and perhaps many theories on this thread will be true, within a larger whole. once we know the larger whole everything will fit im sure, as i have faith in the w's. but...the search is often more fullfilling than the find...the im sure after m3, there will be many ambigues element that deserve closer inspection...here's hoping
• Aug 14 2003 • 11:43AM
RYUUYR says:
But bell, what could the Oracle POSSIBLY say to Morph, even given that he's prone to delusions when it comes to his destiny (did he even believe the prophecy before meeting the Oracle?),
bliind faith clouds judgement, a need for answers perhaps blinded morph from the obvious. morph's faith in the oracle is not based on logic but on emotion, ive known fanatics who do not let logic enter into there belief's as they are lieing to themselves, and more often than not when logic seeps in there belief structure colapses. maybe morpheus has doubts, but if he acknowledged his doubts and non sensical elements of his faith, that would take away alot of his purpose in life...what would morpheus have left without his faith, even though it is a lie.
an interesting point regarding your question; morpheus in m1 says that meeting the oracle changed his life etc etc, but later he states that he has been searching all his life. this could mean that say yesterday at the age of 40 evrything in his life attained a focus, a direction. though one might say that they having be searching for whatever thing they are looking for all there lives, but only realised what it was yesterday.
• Aug 14 2003 • 11:45AM
Just another thought on the Oracle. She if you haven’t noticed she has a way of eluding questions and not giving information clearly.
Morph: "She would say she knows enough"
Just an example of how she can manipulate a question and elude a straight answer.
When they talked to her it's very possible they never got that far to inquire.
• Aug 14 2003 • 11:51AM
that last paragraph does not make sense, sorry...it's seriously hot in this part of the world.
• Aug 14 2003 • 11:56AM
good point ghost, morph would be to much in awe of her to doubt her, as i said blind faith. neo trust's morph in m1 so, as morph trusts the oracle , in turn this leads neo into trusting the oracle to a degree. Plus the oracle is alway's using her party tricks; vase falling to floor etc, these tactics/party tricks are designed to shift focus and as the oracle illustrates, work quite well
• Aug 14 2003 • 12:44PM
I simply don't want the Oracle to be a bad, manipulating girl. I don't like the black-and-white-painting this everything-is-a-lie-and-a-conspiracy-theory does.
Matrix somehow manages to give every myth a reason. Werewolfs and Aliens are just rouge programs. Neo has superpowers, because he is a Matrix-hacker. In this line it would make sense that the Oracle can forsee, because she helps to fullfil the plan.
But on the other hand it would be cheap to explain the crashing vase as just a party trick. This would be heavily disappointing.
I think m3 will raise much discussion, because the W's can never manage to fullfil everybodys expectations, how the Matrix should end. It will be disappoint for many, either because it was too obvious or is a deus-ex-machina experience.
• Aug 14 2003 • 12:53PM
I watched the trailer again. The dialog between Niobe and Ghost, could it be right after the crash in the end of Enter the Matrix? Which would be the start of m3.
The laughing Smith in the Oracles kitchen could als laugh in a crazy way, perhaps he gets more and more mad.
There is a lot of fighting in Zion, which is of course necessary and very dramatic.
What is this rushing into the disco, with these green lasers? Morpheus and Trinity are in the Matrix on some kind of quest, like in m2.
• Aug 14 2003 • 2:05PM
I got to ponder your untouched question and it sucks.
Try this one: If Neo went back to work would his boss remember giving his the speech? The Agents would have to erase the memory of the entire day from everyone or implant the memory of the end of the day in Neo. They didn’t implant the memory in Neo because he recalls the bug and I don’t think they erased everyone’s memories.
But either way we wont know. The only logical explanation is that it doesn’t matter to them. They know he’ll go to Morph and they’ll catch and kill everyone, so screw it. They were going to kill him but Smith stopped them and said that he was going to use Neo. So they don’t have to hide what happened he not going to be around long enough to question it. To them he’s dead. Neo just justified the happening as a dream. Neo just blanked out and the time that elapsed could have very well been the same night or a week then they brought him and set him in bed. But he remembers everything and so does his co-workers and boss.
I think your real question is what kind of power or control do the Agents really have.
I know the Agents can’t turn matrix time back or stop it like Dark City. So he can’t wake up at the beginning of the previous day and everything is the same.
I’m not sure if the agents can alter memories. But they might be able to. In that light they could (like I said before) either erase the memory of the previous day in everyone’s mind or implant the memory of the supposed day in Neo.
They do however have the power to change reality in the present like shutting Neo’s mouth or changing the building. But I think they need a sufficient amount of time ahead and they can’t do something huge (like fixing a skyscraper that was just destroyed). Too many minds would wake up.
It only makes sense. Why what do you think happened?
• Aug 14 2003 • 2:54PM
It seems that no one thinks I understand about fanatical behaviour...I do indeed. I guess I should make myself more clear. It's OBVIOUS that Morpheus is deluded by the Oracle, whether she's benevolant or not, but my point is that DESPITE this, he still uses his head in other cases. If he was so blind as you all seem to think, why does he bother doing anything? Wouldn't he just figure everything would happen the way it should as long as all the players are in their places? It is apparant that he's not that extreme since he makes decisions (this isn't going to get into whether or not he's really making choices, blah blah...that's for somewhere else), he comes up with ideas...in his mind, these would be part of the purpose, but it DOES illustrate that he is a pragmatic person also. He knows that what he sees isn't always what it appears to be (one of the main things about M1), so although he might be misled or blinded by the Oracle, he's still a leader. I know fanatics who won't even HEAR anything against their belief, but I know fanatics who NEED to have everything spelled out for them. In fact, much of the modern Catholic church's ideas came from Bishops and others getting together and trying to make sense of the bible, to explain where these things come from. These people WERE fanatics, they believed completely, and most likely they would have done whatever was asked of them if they felt it was divine...BUT, they still want explanations at some point. I cannot believe that Morpheus or ANYONE for that matter would not at least for ONE SECOND wonder about the Oracle and her nature within the matrix. I don't know how else I can word it, it all ends up sounding like I'm repeating myself...I don't want to get all annoying...hehehehe...I just can't put it into words I guess, but no one's yet touched on my actual questions...just what my questions seem to be. I'll have to find a way to word it better (for myself if anyone)...
• Aug 14 2003 • 3:31PM
First my above post was the answer to Spoon Boy.
RYUUYR these are the Only Possible Scenarios:
1. Morph knows and didn't tell.
2. Morph doesn’t know.
As far as him knowing and not telling he has a reason and it will be revealed.
If he doesn’t know then there are a few possible scenarios:
1. He never thought about it.
2. He never asked.
3. He was lied to or tricked.
4. He asked and never got an answer.
What do you think is the most obvious answer?
• Aug 14 2003 • 5:36PM
Good one ghost ;)
i'd go with 3, who said the oracle wouldnt lie for the greater good ? Or the "real" purpose , or nr 4 that she didnt answer or gave an cryptic answer like she does.
• Aug 14 2003 • 6:52PM
What do you think is the most obvious answer?
Both 1 and 2, which could probably be regarded as the same thing.
If Neo went back to work would his boss remember giving his the speech?
Probably. But are you even sure the boss is a jacked human in the first place? Early on in the thread, somebody posted insight that Metacortex was a software development firm that was actually writing the code for the Matrix itself.
To speculate, do you suppose anybody (friends, family, co-workers) has filed a Missing Person report on Tom Anderson yet?
• Aug 14 2003 • 7:27PM
Ghost says...
(yada yada yada)...Why what do you think happened?
I take it you're referring to the the course of events between the navel creature and the waking up screaming, yes?
I'm still not convinced it wasn't a dream. When you think about it, is the Matrix that much unlike a dream anyway? You've got people in pods, their physical bodies inactive, their minds active.
I remember the first time watching M1, when Neo woke up, I was under the impression that "it was all a dream". Over the course of the next 15 minutes or so in the film, that notion was buried when he came out of the pod. But I still find things unclear regarding the course of those events leading up to the awakening in bed.
Everything about the Matrix world is similar to a dream state, and there are elements in the story that refer to the theme of dreams (Morpheus was the God of Dreams, Nebuchadnezzar was a king especially known for his dreams, Alice in Wonderland was a story of a girl who had a dream, and so on.)
Where the line is drawn between that which is a dream and that which isn't, or rather, what is real and what is artificial, is really what the story is all about.
You ever have that feeling that your not sure if you're awake or still dreaming?
Wake up Neo...
• Aug 15 2003 • 7:44AM
Morpheus possible first encounter with the Oracle:
Morpheus enters the room
Oracle: So you are Morpheus.
Morpheus: Who did you tell that and who are you?
Oracle: I think you would call me an Oracle or something
Oracle pulls out a plate with some cake
Morpheus: Oracle? So you can see the future?
Oracle: Bingo ... do you want to have some piece of cake? No, you don't.
Morpheus: Why are you asking anyway?
Oracle: I'm just polite.
Morpheus: I can't believe in you. You are tricking me.
Oracle: You needn't believe in me, but you will believe in someone else.
Morpheus: Uh? What do you mean?
Morpheus takes down his glasses
Oracle: You know the story about the man, who could change the Matrix. He will come back and you will find him. *she smiles* Don't mind them, my kids will fix it.
Morpheus: What?
Morpheus brakes his glasses
Oracle: My kids will fix it. Just walk through the door and ask the boy with the spoon ... and don't forget to take some piece of the cake it tastes very well.
Morpheus walks out, very confused
Is this case 3 or 4?
Neos wake up:
Perhaps after they inserted the bug, they injected some sedative (like Morpheus later) and brought him back home. A strong sedative could cause some blackout like after some party, when you wake up and don't know where you are und who the f**k is the ugly girl beside you?!
The W's choose to blend this out, because this way the audience thinks like Neo it was a dream.
• Aug 15 2003 • 7:44AM
Where the line is drawn between that which is a dream and that which isn't, or rather, what is real and what is artificial, is really what the story is all about.
that is the bottom line, every thing is fake, a fabrication a simularcrum. and because of this neo will be forever manipulated until he does infact wake up, as many have said before and i included believe the real world (though im not sure what that means anymore, in this throw away copied cultured of ours (western world)), has not been represented in these films as yet. perhaps we will see a dark city type ending, or perhaps earth is a paradise and every thing weve seen is all in 01, where either A.I. or humans are captive. perhaps the planet is so inhospitable that humans can only survive in the matrix and the machines are doing them a bi favour by trying to keep them in there.
was anyone effect by the blackouts in the states?
• Aug 15 2003 • 7:47AM
sorry for double posting i got an error first and refreshed ...
• Aug 15 2003 • 7:48AM
bezale good mate!, morpheus could have left the oracle and not believed a word concievably, then say one of the things she told him came true, lets say in zion. morph would believe in her after that thinking zion is real, so he would assume she must have power/insight etc...
• Aug 15 2003 • 8:09AM
ryuuyr, if zion is in the matrix, it is safe to assume that the matrix would mould/nurture him into a gulible bafoon. morph was bred to believe the oracle, i think this point stands even if zion is real, rembember morpheus lived part of his life in the dictatorship of the matrix, within in the matrix you could mould an individual personality into anything you wanted.
• Aug 15 2003 • 8:58AM
spooboy says:To speculate, do you suppose anybody (friends, family, co-workers) has filed a Missing Person report on Tom Anderson yet?
i would say no, neo is a recluse, has no friend or familiy, he recollects nothing at all, regarding the past. all main protaganists in m1/m2 lack a certain amount of charactor depth, which leads me to the conclusion that they are A.I.
• Aug 15 2003 • 9:15AM
when the sentinal's fly toward neo at the end of m2, one would assume that writen in their programjming there would be a do not harm the one/anomaly. forget neo collapsing for a second, but lets say neo did not react to the sqiddies, surely who ever controls them would not want them to harm neo/one/anomoly. has neo has not fullfilled his purpose.
• Aug 15 2003 • 9:30AM
Powers Back!! I was as blacked as Neo after The Squids.
Is that Oracle/Morph script legit?
• Aug 15 2003 • 9:32AM
what if within the matrix, A.I. was created by metracorps which in turn escalated into a war between man and machine, and a matrix was created by the victors within the matrix. and humans or machines were placed inside this matrix that is inside the matrix...and what if a matrix was created by the victor of another battle between man and machine in the matrix that is inside the matrix, and the victors of that war created a matrix within the matrix which is within the MATRIX...to house the humans or machines...
• Aug 15 2003 • 9:35AM
ghost glad ure powers back on , no i think bezale was hypothosizing
• Aug 15 2003 • 9:45AM
the blackout was an a illustration of our over reliance on technology and the choas that ensues when we are deprived of such power. welcome to the desert of the real...
• Aug 15 2003 • 10:03AM
HA...
• Aug 15 2003 • 10:17AM
The Oracle/Morpheus script is just a fantasy! Its from me, not the W's. I don't want to spread any false stories. Amazing it sounds legit to you.
It was fun to write it, perhaps i should do some more? :-P
bell, if the sentinels are programmed not to harm Neo, they should be glad the bomb didn't kill him. This theory stands only within the Matrix-in-Matrix theory.
A thing i stumpled upon regarding EMP. An ElectroMagnetical Pulse destroys elecronical things. The pulse induces electrical power so strong that it just burns the cable. And EMP would set your PC on fire! The rebels have these connection in their neck and there must be some wires to their brain. An EMP would affect those wires and their brains would be burned. Where is my error? Or is it just a movie EMP like many others?
• Aug 15 2003 • 10:32AM
Future metals... Mabey not affected...
• Aug 15 2003 • 10:44AM
maybe emp blasts just never go of at all in m1/m2, just the illusion of an emp (because nothing is real), surely the w's would not ignore the laws of physics...they are so thorough else where regarding the films...
• Aug 15 2003 • 11:02AM
beza1e1
I thought a EMP would just effect things with electrical current running threw them at the time of the blast? Are you sure it would Burn everything?
• Aug 15 2003 • 11:05AM
An Electromagnetic pulse is a burst of electromagnetic energy produced by a nuclear or warp explosion in the atmosphere, considered capable of widespread damage to power lines, telecommunications, and electronic equipment.
EMP is rated like any other effect, from 1 to 5. Every piece of electrical or electronic equipment has a hardning rating which it used to resist EMP effects.
Should a device succumb to EMP then it is damaged and will require repair and component replacement.
EMP should not be mistaken for Haywire which is much more powerful and destructive.
• Aug 15 2003 • 11:11AM
emp will not burn anything, though if it effects live electrical components, that obviously will start a fire if there are flamable materials in close proximity...
• Aug 15 2003 • 11:15AM
though haywire on the other hand...Haywire is somewhat analogous to EMP effects in that it damages electronic systems. However the effect has been tempered with a quantum electrical inversion that does more than just damage electronics, it completely and utterly destroys them.
Normally one would protect ones self from electromagnetic effects by using a crystalline material that would absorb the EMP and dissipate it hamelssly, as demonstrated by an EMP Sponge. When EMP sponges are affected by Haywire they do offer limited protection; every EMP sponge present absorbs the damage and is simultaneously destroyed in the process.
In terms of game mechanics, Haywire cannot be resisted using a Hardening Rating. If a device has any EMP sponges installed then upon the first haywire EVERY EMP sponge will be destroyed to protect the device. On the second Haywire however, the device is destroyed.
Haywire is a Global effect.
• Aug 15 2003 • 11:17AM
But would it in real life effect the ship in a negitive way if the ship was off?
• Aug 15 2003 • 11:40AM
Zion's Councilor West states that "Comprehension is not
requisite of cooperation." to commander lock, is he refering to cooperation between lock and himself, or is he eluding to a possible peace treaty of sort's between, man/machine or machine and man depending of course on who is the jailer and who is the prisoner? it still niggles me that the council know something!
• Aug 15 2003 • 11:42AM
if anything electrical is of, so there is no charge, no connection to a power source the emp would have no effect.
• Aug 15 2003 • 11:44AM
thats why the neb powers down at the end of m1, though they did'nt power down until neo was jacked out of the matrix.
• Aug 15 2003 • 11:58AM
questioin: so why arent the sentinals coated in a crystalline material that would absorb the EMP and dissipate it hamelssly? this is the sixth time they've attacked zion, surely they would upgrade the sentinal at some point, make them more efficient! answer: the sentinals are designed to be defeated. Everything is by design.
• Aug 15 2003 • 1:11PM
Bell your going to be pretty upset when you find out that the MWM is not true. :-)
Can someone please advise me of the current status of Z10N @ the end of the Movie. It's unclear as to whether they have time left or if Z10N is gone. Also why would the machines leave Smith? Their purpose is to seek and kill. Plus I don't think they would leave him alive even if they knew it was him, and I don't think they could know.
Also I came to the realization that the Animatrixs are not for our entertainment. Each one is there to show us a point. Like the Kids Story is there to show that someone can will him or herself out and introduce us to that character. Each One IS Something Specific That Needs To Be Learned To Realize The Whole B166ER picture. Think about it.
• Aug 15 2003 • 2:45PM
Ghost says:
Can someone please advise me of the current status of Z10N @ the end of the Movie. It's unclear as to whether they have time left or if Z10N is gone.
Zion still exists. It was the diversion crew, under the command of Locke, that got hammered by the sentinels outside the gates of Z10N.
Also why would the machines leave Smith?
Not sure if I understand the question. It seems to be assuming that the machines are in kahoots with Smith and working as a single unit with the Agents, which isn't necessarily the case.
Also I came to the realization that the Animatrixs are not for our entertainment. Each one is there to show us a point. Like the Kids Story is there to show that someone can will him or herself out and introduce us to that character. Each One IS Something Specific That Needs To Be Learned To Realize The Whole B166ER picture.
Pretty entertaining if you ask me! :)
• Aug 15 2003 • 3:10PM
Interesting: Entertainment Not for the sake of entertaining is entertaining because it's not for the sake of entertaining. :-)
Now this may make me sound really nieve but I was under the impression that the ship that rescued Neo, Morph, and Trin was the same ship that had Smith on it. I am almost certain that I picked up some info stating that, that ship had went amidst the rubble of what was left of Z10N and the only survivor left was Smith.
If that isn't true then I guess I’ll have to spend another $7.50 and not drink so much soda. :)
I've only seen it twice :(
• Aug 15 2003 • 4:03PM
Ghost says:
I was under the impression that the ship that rescued Neo, Morph, and Trin was the same ship that had Smith on it. I am almost certain that I picked up some info stating that, that ship had went amidst the rubble of what was left of Z10N and the only survivor left was Smith.
Yes, it was the same ship that had Smith, but don't forget that the heroes don't know this. They still see him as Bane.
Entertainment Not for the sake of entertaining is entertaining because it's not for the sake of entertaining.
lol, exactly. One man's entertainment is another man's chore. Hell, I take IQ tests for fun!
• Aug 15 2003 • 5:28PM
Before I go on Vacation (so I won't be posting or reading until 08/25) I’d like to queue you into something else to talk about that hasn't been discussed. Mabey ya guys can throw it around.
From the first time I saw the matrix I saw many strong relationships to drug use. Now I’m not saying that there is more drug symbolism then religious, but if you look at the movies there is a strong undertow.
First of all when the W's were asked where they got the idea for the movie, they stated "designer drugs".
Then you have the Alice in Wonderland theme and everyone knows that book was written with a drug undercurrent as strong as the song Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds.
Then you have the food theme. As we discussed before the theme is there but if you look at the food given and the kiss from drug not program perspective it still works. Obviously the Pills given go to that theme.
1. Neo: "Not sure if you’re awake or still dreaming."
ANTHONY: "Mescaline, it's the only way to fly."
2. "Free Your Mind"
3. MORPHEUS: "You take the red pill and you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes."
4. Cookies and Candy.
5. Changing perceptions of reality...etc
I have to admit that there is a drug theme related to this movie. Anyone agree?
• Aug 15 2003 • 7:48PM
Ghost says:
I have to admit that there is a drug theme related to this movie. Anyone agree?
No comment. ;)
• Aug 15 2003 • 11:51PM
Sponboy says: To speculate, do you suppose anybody (friends, family, co-workers) has filed a Missing Person report on Tom Anderson yet?
bell says: would say no, neo is a recluse, has no friend or familiy, he recollects nothing at all, regarding the past.
Just about it.
Let's think: in the previous M1 scripts, (where all looks like ending in only one film, and Mophs tells Neo about the previous 5, e.g.) Neo Indeed HAS family and friends, that he left to go to Chicago (yes, in the 97 he goes there just to meet Morphs).
Underg disco scene:
TRINITY (in 1997 M1 script)
Please. Just listen. I know why
you're here, Neo. I know why you
left your family and your friends,
why you left your home to come to
this city. You're looking for him.
...
• Aug 16 2003 • 12:14AM
Just a thought I maybe keep to me:
I posted before abou Neo being the 6 and the previous 5, and bla bla. But have you realized Actually Neo died...
ORACLE
Sorry, kid. You got the gift but
looks like you're waiting for
something.
NEO
What?
ORACLE
Your next life, maybe. Who knows.
That's how these things go.
...
... AND He is in his NEXT life, ERGO He is really the 7th.
That is my point today: Does Trinity's kiss brought him BACK to life? Or Does it instead Give him a NEW life?
In that case, He is my so-seeked Ones-Fullfilment. :-P
Just Wondering.
Or am I losing it again?
ps: Has anyone found Meaning for the room 808 and the "eight floor. They are in the eight floor" , where the crew tries to escape and Morpheus embraces his life-long-friend Smith?:-P
• Aug 16 2003 • 1:02AM
(Please forgive me for posting so much space in a single day :-P)
AGENT SMITH
I hate this place. This zoo. This
prison. This reality, whatever you
want to call it, I can't stand it
any longer. I must get out of here,
I must get free.
AGENT SMITH
Once Zion is destroyed, there is no
need for me to be here. Do you
understand? I need the codes. I
have to get inside Zion.
And where the hell is going Smith "Once Zion is destroyed"? Does he believe in a super-agent-ural Heaven for them? Does he instead wanna be Recycled at The Source (remember he is the only one at M1, besides the Oracle, who knows about it)?
... and him wanting "to get inside Zion"... Sometimes I think in M1 he Hhhhhhates humans because they are kind of free, what he isnt, but when he "is set free", he STILL wants to get inside Zion, ... ad he does, in Bane's. He does change his mind, or maybe the monologue he give Morpheus is just by envy.
...
Just losing it...
• Aug 16 2003 • 8:20AM
I don't think Smith thinks about the sense of his aims. My browser has the task to let me access webservers and show me nice HTML-pages. Do you think it thinks about the sense in this? Will it go into some kind of super-browser-ural Heaven? Smith is just a program, not a philospher.
The trailer mentions "12 hours left until Zion is destroyed"
EMP affects uncharged wires as well! Do you know how a dynamo works? Its the same wether you move a magnet along a wire or let lose a EMP. Both change the electromagnetical field, which induces electrical energie and very much of it, so the wires acts like the wire in a bulb. It starts glowing ...
• Aug 16 2003 • 1:33PM
The scene in the Matrix Reloaded where Neo grabs the steel pole and rips it out of the concrete pavement. notice that the pole is just to the right of his right foot. but he reaches across and grabs it with his LEFT hand. hummmm... i bet he would vote Democrat!!!!! (-:
---tomster
• Aug 16 2003 • 1:58PM
NumerologyFan says:
And where the hell is going Smith "Once Zion is destroyed"?
It's not about where Smith wants to go. It's about where Smith doesn't want to be. As an Agent, he has a purpose. A responsibility to remain in the Matrix and fight the Zion resistance. That is the only reason for his existence.
He hates this situation. He wants no part of this anymore. He'd rather be non-existent than to remain in this "place" ... this "hell" ... whatever you want to call it. He desires suicide, but he doesn't have the power to take himself out.
His reasoning is that if the Zion resistance no longer existed, he'd have no purpose anymore. That's fine with him. He'd be relieved of the responsibility that has become such a burden.
We know computer programs do not have the capacity to think this way, to rationalize, to be selfish, to be suicidal. But the story is about Artificial Intelligence, which takes the whole concept of computer programs to a new level.
• Aug 17 2003 • 12:00AM
beza1e1 says:
Smith is just a program, not a philospher.
Hey bez, in the W's films, everybody is a philosopher :-D
• Aug 17 2003 • 7:46AM
lol
Ok, but Smiths reactions and actions can all be explained in program logic. He must not be part of any conspiracy or know anything more than we. Perhaps the conspiracy (if there is any) uses him, but "he knows nothing".
With conspiracy he mean some greater plan we don't know yet, of course the Matrix is a conspiracy for the imprisoned humans.
• Aug 17 2003 • 1:53PM
Just a quick comment...
We all remember the scene with Cypher and Smith, Cypher is content to live in a world of complacency and illusion..
Now, this could either be some ironic joke in reference to a possible MwM.. but I think it's too blatent to be -just- that
as well it also pretty much disproves all this shit I've been hearing about "oh Neo is the only human" because Cypher does his little deal in secret. If Cypher really was a computer why would he do that? Sure it makes sense that he might if was to play some part in a greater design created by the Tech.. but it's purely behind Neo's back, it doesn't make sense unless Cypher is human.
Why is it none of you are paying attention to what the Oracle says: "NEO'S MIND IS TRAPPED BETWEEN YOUR WORLD AND OURS"
Now we know Bane is also unconcious.. which means him and Neo are trapped on some plane of existence somewhere and will have to have it out in 1 giagantic battle final
Now this, as well as the whole Zion battle is going to take quite a bit of time.. you guys have to remember this is only a movie, there just isn't enough time for some of the stuff I've been hearing
1 more thing.. someone mentioned at the end of M1 when NEo is talking on the phone to whoever that that might actually be the end of the trilogy. Now I don't know how likely that is... but any ideas on who he is talking to?
can he just dail 10-10-4Agents or could he possibly be talking to someone in the "real" world? I can't remember exactly what he says but it's something like "when I hang up this phone I'm going to show these people the world you don't want them to see"
That -could- still apply if he was talking to a "real" person in the outside world which does give the MwM theory a bit of credit
I dunno.. bake on
• Aug 18 2003 • 2:34AM
Weird how I've seen the matrix a lot, and now I just got around to listening to the commentary on the dvd and also noticing details I had not before (although I'm sure you guys have). So far I'm still near the beginning but I found it funny that when asked to explain something about travelling through the phone, he decides not to say anything about it.
I also noticed on neos screen when he wakes up, the articles about Morpheous and how he escaped police at heathrow. Then theres the arabic stuff that appears. Hmm, cradle of life city in the middle east of 01.
I also saw the two 'in red' ladies when neo was getting in the car. And lots of signs and numbers and writings everywhere that are probably just signs and numbers :)
Hope I get to see some more stuff I missed as I go through it again.
• Aug 18 2003 • 4:23AM
Thanks Old_Gobbo for backing up against the MwM theory :)
I think Neo told the machines, he will now start to free the people. There is a lot of time between m1 and m2. Dozer died, they got Link. Link was on the Neb for a long time, as his wife complains. Morhpeus mentiones six months (we freed more people in the last six months, than in the last six years), perhaps this is the time span we are talking about. I can't remeber the english text, but the german translation uses a plural form of "you" in the speech.
So far I'm still near the beginning but I found it funny that when asked to explain something about travelling through the phone, he decides not to say anything about it.
You don't understand why they travel through the phone lines? I don't understand your sentence. Who is "he"?
• Aug 18 2003 • 5:14AM
spoonboy says:It's not about where Smith wants to go. It's about where Smith doesn't want to be. As an Agent, he has a purpose.
what if smith was programmed to act the way he does in the m1 in the morpheus scene, as that is part of his design, and in turn would lead him to his conflict and destruction, with neo and become multipul smith. smith was programmed to be an antaganist. eg if agent brown or agent jones were destroyed by neo and then returned multipul they would be different to smith one would assume.
ctm3 says:
Weird how I've seen the matrix a lot, and now I just got around to listening to the commentary on the dvd
i did'nt know you could get matrix with commentary, well not in england anyway, what on the disc?
old-gobbo says:Why is it none of you are paying attention to what the Oracle says: "NEO'S MIND IS TRAPPED BETWEEN YOUR WORLD AND OURS"
it could be that neo's mind is trapped between two systems, notably matrix and zion. a kind of buffer between the 2 perhaps. though it way just all be part of the matrix/oracle decieving or testing trin and co. as if the MwM theory is right everything is a lie anyway...Ghost you're right, i do dingle mindedly believe in the mwm theory, i think i would be disappointed if it werent the case, as i think all other theories ive heard just dont explain all the different elements that have been idetified on this thread, have a good vacation.
• Aug 18 2003 • 5:41AM
old-gobbo says:1 more thing.. someone mentioned at the end of M1 when NEo is talking on the phone to whoever that that might actually be the end of the trilogy. Now I don't know how likely that is... but any ideas on who he is talking to?
its not the end of the trilogy as you probably know, one would assume neo does not know who he is talking to, other than the system that is at that moment in time oppressing humans( or A.I.).
though as the architect's screen's appear mid way through the movies when neo is being interogated by smith/brown/jones, one would assume the architect is listening. Also you must remember when neo speaks on the phone he is living a lie at this point, as morpheus has blagged him into beleiving in the prophesy, which we now know is a load of bull, so neo is assuming the role of moses/christ.
• Aug 18 2003 • 7:17AM
found this article on the web...there not that much given away, though thought you might be interested...
--"NEO AND TRINITY GET MARRIED." Keanu Reeves is joking. Come to think of it, maybe he's not. Following "Matrix" publicity protocol, the star really isn't yapping much about the third and final (we think) installment in the sci-fi series. Still, he has a few general tips. "There's a battle between Zion and the machines," he says. "And the relationship between Agent Smith and Neo is resolved. And some questions of the journey of Neo as The One are answered. And lots of surprises." One of which, we're guessing, is a much-talked-about 14-minute, low-altitude helicopter chase. Most of our favorite characters are also back, including cyber-sexpot Monica Belucci as Persephone and Jada Pinkett Smith, whose Niobe continues to lead the rebellion against those oppresive scraps of metal. "I'm more involved in the story," says Pinkett Smith. "I help save the day, and you see my love story with Laurence resolved." Still, she adds, "I don't think anybody gets married."
But let's go back and talk about "Reloaded" for a minute. The movie will gross $280 million domestically, but critics generally weren't pleased, and, as things played out, summertime audiences cared more about a talking fish than ***-kicking computer viruses. "The second movie is always the toughest one in a trilogy," says series executive producer Bruce Berman, who is confident that viewers will flock to the third installment. They'd better. Warner Bros. and Berman's Village Roadshow took a risk when they shot both "Matrix" sequels simultaneously over 18 months in California and Australia-a great plan if interest builds in the series (see "The Lord of the Rings"), but potentially deadly if people decide they've just had enough ("Back to the Future").
Also complicating things is the continued silence of the Wachowski Brothers, who don't do any press. "Why would they want to give answers to something that's about searching for yourself?" says Reeves. He's got a point, but the shroud of mystery surrounding the writer-directors got a little tattered earlier this year when older sibling Larry showed up to "Reloaded's L.A. premiere dressed kinda funny with a supposed dominatrix on his arm. "Did that happen?" Reeves asks seriously. "I don't remember that." So HE'S the one. WHAT'S AT STAKE The Wachowski's future. Their reputation as Hollywood's most innovative filmmakers may depend on whether they can reload the wow factor they had with the first "Matrix".--
• Aug 18 2003 • 7:54AM
Hm we get some infos about the action, but nearly nothing about th e plot.
bell, i am not sure the prophecy is wrong. Perhaps the misinterpretated it. In every story they do.
I stumpled upon Spoonboys phrase about Smith:
His reasoning is that if the Zion resistance no longer existed, he'd have no purpose anymore.
Smith used the word purpose in the burly brawl. As far as i remember: I'll take from you [Neo], what you have taken from me. Purpose. He lost it and he wants it back from Neo.
• Aug 18 2003 • 8:03AM
i get ure point bezale1, but i sense that the agenda of smith has changed somewhat, since his tranformation, and perhaps what smith said in m1 should not always relate to what he says in m2.
also when smith speaks of zion's resistance, maybe he his eluding to the fact that once the matrix has been reset he can leave (to where? is there some program paradise outside the matrix?) but if the matrix is reset when the zion codes are found by smith, smith at some point would have to return to the matrix, wouldnt he? when the anomoly reaches, lets say maturity...it's confusing! i think smith in m1 could be just fullfilling his programming with every actio he makes, every thing he states etc...
• Aug 18 2003 • 8:07AM
...assuming smith is a program!!!
i cant get away from the fact that every that has happend in m1 and m2 was meant to happen, and was going to happen no matter what. and that the architect is manipulating all that goes on in order to fullfill his need, 100% acceptance etc...
• Aug 18 2003 • 8:40AM
can anyone verify if the dates as mentioned in this post i found are correct...
(HUGE SPOILER) Neo's phone call in the Matrix is at THE END of Revolutions!
This goes deep, so follow me if you will:
The original Matrix starts with Trinity and Cypher talking, the screen shows "Trace Program" and the date "2-18-98".
The movie ends with Neo making a phone call, the trace program is initiated and the date reads "9-18-99"... 19 months have passed!
If you watch the movie again, you'll see that the time sequence implies that they found Neo (probably sometime in 1998) and completed the rehab sometime in 1999: Morpheus tells Neo "you believe it's 1999 when infact it's closer to...".
Significant? Yes; I propose that Reloaded and Revolutions (which we know occur one after another), take place prior to 9-18-99. Here's why:
Only a few months could have passed from the time Morpheus and the crew 'free' Neo to the time Neo is killed and revived in the hallway. Why? for one, Neo's hair barely grows in that time and that's not a trivial observation (it's also obvious that Neo grew out his hair in Reloaded which occurs roughly 6 months after he's unplugged).
We also know the W brothers don't put insignificant things into their movies - the fact that they obviously signal to us that 19 months have passed from the start of the Matrix to the time Neo makes that phone call is there for a reason.
In Reloaded, Neo says that "I wish I knew what I was supposed to do". The phone call scene in the Matrix, Neo is very sure of what he is supposed to do, "I'm going to hang up this phone and show these people what you don't want them to see... a world without you, without controls and boundries". Why would he have forgotten what to do between M1 and M2? he didn't, that last scene in M1 occurs after Revolutions!
Finally, at the end of M1, Neo states that "I can feel you now, you are scared". At the end of Reloaded he says, "Something is different, I can FEEL them now".
One more thing. A game directed by the W brothers called Matrix online is due in '04 and the timeframe takes place after Revolutions... and the matrix is alive and well in the game.
My guess is that there is no MiM, they don't destroy the Matrix because they can't unplug everyone at once and we'll see Neo make that very same phone call at the end of Revolutions!
I hope this wasn't too confusing to follow.
• Aug 18 2003 • 9:03AM
WARNING! (just in case!). right i found this on the net, and im not sure what to make of it. one thing for sure whoever wrote this has a good imagination. There are some fantastic picture's, worth a look certainly...
http://www.xzaust.com/index.php?page=matrix
• Aug 18 2003 • 9:36AM
Nearly all the pictures are from the trailer ... the theory is good. The mother of the matrix is missing, isn't she? The Matrix must survives thats sure, because of the Onlinegame. Nobody explains how Neo can be in the Matrix without a wire. Kid is the One, then who is Neo? Morpheus found the One "indirectly" is somehow lame. This story is pretty wierd, not impossible, but not really satisfiy either. But i like it more the MwM ;)
• Aug 18 2003 • 9:49AM
i dont believe the over all premise, but a few plot points keep coming up from various different web sites (e.g. 3 lines in the black desert etc). though i would assume security would be tight with the w's. so these recurring plot points must be forever expanding rumours/bullshit! though ive heard worse...
• Aug 18 2003 • 9:51AM
This phone call theory is somehow convincing. I can't find any counter arguments.
Another point about xzaust. If the prophecy for Morpheus is true, what about the prophecy for Trinity? Will Trinity fall in love with the Kid?! I think the Oracle never said literally that Neo is the One, but why did she send him on the quest in m2? Wouldn't the Oracle have prophecied something about the self-substantiation of the One, if it is the kid?
The Merovingian, the Keymaker and the Architect call Neo the One, are they wrong as well? The more i think about it the less i believe in it ...
• Aug 18 2003 • 9:53AM
beza1e1 (not MwM) :) ...ive never seen the reloaded end credits revolutions trailer, ive only seen the enter the matrix trailer. i assume the pictures are from the former...
• Aug 18 2003 • 10:04AM
i think neo is the one, simply for narrative purposes, forgetting "kids story" as not all those who watch m2 will bother with the animatrix, the kid (popper) has done little in the films, and if he were the one surely the w's would have built his charractor up more. it is perhaps to late in the day for such a back track, or maybe im wrong i dont know. the kid could simply be version 7 of the one, if we are to believe the xzaust. theory.
the m1 phone booth theory certainly warrants a look, it never occurred to me to check the dates, (will do tonite). as i dont believe that m1 takes place over an 18 month period. though admittedly time is somewhat blurred in m1, and maybe neo's recupperation on the neb (building up muscle density etc) could have taken some time. but 18 months to me, could be the duration of time for the whole trilogy, so who knows there could be some truth in the phone booth theory.
• Aug 18 2003 • 10:09AM
bell why are you reposting this story? You posted it on July 03, 2003 at 02:28:30 ET and now once again?
• Aug 18 2003 • 10:16AM
if neo's just a bloody cyborg... oh i give up...
• Aug 18 2003 • 10:21AM
beza1e1 says:
bell why are you reposting this story? You posted it on July 03, 2003 at 02:28:30 ET and now once again?
its not the same post, nor the same source...you will notice differences...though there are similar theme's...or am i just losing it (:
no seriously the begining of both post's are the same but the rest of the posts go of in different directions. though admittedly i have not read the july 03 post for a while...
• Aug 18 2003 • 10:39AM
beza1e1 says:
bell why are you reposting this story? you are right, i am losing it, must see revolutions as im just tieing my self in knots theoriesing about "celluloid" for gods sake...has it come to this :)
• Aug 18 2003 • 12:29PM
bell says:
spoonboy says:It's not about where Smith wants to go. It's about where Smith doesn't want to be. As an Agent, he has a purpose.
what if smith was programmed to act the way he does in the m1 in the morpheus scene, as that is part of his design, and in turn would lead him to his conflict and destruction, with neo and become multipul smith. smith was programmed to be an antaganist.
The whole topic of Artificial Intelligence deals with the concept of a computer program that can think for itself, and make decisions beyond what it was originally programmed to make. Computer programs do what they were programmed to do. The idea of creating an intelligent program takes things to a new level. It's like creating an intelligent lifeform, with a mind all its own.
It is true that Smith could've been "programmed to be an antagonist", but his artificial intelligence is has clearly evolved and has developed "non-program" (intelligent humanlike) traits. Particularly in the Morpheus questioning scene in M1. Smith's personality is becoming more and more human (impatience, disdain, hatred, etc.), and he has become more than a computer program. Even his cohorts Brown and Jones don't quite know what to make of his behaviour; its foreign to them. Remember when Smith has Morpheus by the head, demanding the access code? Brown and Jones walk in and can't even comprehend what Smith is doing. "What are you doing???" etc.
• Aug 18 2003 • 1:08PM
Bez.. "he", was one of the guys commenting on the DVD. Carrey Ann Moss and the effects guy and the cinematographer I believe. Don't remember their names.
• Aug 18 2003 • 1:10PM
I agree with you Spoonboy, but lets guess you were the architecht und you are writing a bot, an intelligent one. You do this for a special purpose, be it getting access to Zion, capturing Morpheus or the One, or keeping the One on its path. Now you want the AI to do this. You just must set some data (you don't like this place, Zion is a nice place) and a clue (Morpheus has the keys) and the AI will do its job. Make sure the AI 1)can't change this initial configuration or 2)doesn't know about the initial configuration. The agent will now figure out itself how to get the keys from Morpheus. It is not important wether this place or Zion is nice or wether Morpheus has any keys or not, you set the parameters and the AI will act according to them.
We can guess, that Smith has got the initial aim "kill the One to get relief". The bad thing or the anomaly was that Smith did his job. He killed the One and as a result the One killed him - blue screen of death - system crash - system integrity broken - hey i can replicate myself now! What is my purpose now, after i killed the One? Lets assimilate the One, he will know probably ...
• Aug 18 2003 • 1:45PM
beza1e1 says:
but lets guess you were the architecht und you are writing a bot, an intelligent one
I don't see the Architect as being the ultimate programmer here. The Architect is that "singular consciousness that spawned an entire race of machines" that Morpheus described.
The Architect is A.I.
Abstract concepts can be difficult to for the human mind to grasp. That's what analogies and metaphors are for. For the purpose of the audience's comprehension, the abstract entity known as Artificial Intelligence is being conveyed to us in the Architect character.
• Aug 18 2003 • 3:46PM
Do you see the Architect and Smith as differnt, independent AIs? I do.
When i speak of "programming", it is kongruent with "spawning", because the Architect will have to copy himself and change the copy (setting the variables and aims as descrobed above). This could be called "spawning", i think.
The AI itself is more like the humans. You can't see it in the Matrix, but you can see the avatar (the Architect, Agents, ...).
I see them like the bots today (IRC bot, Counterstrike bot, Eliza, ...). You can run one instance on your PC or you can run different copies (programmer slang: spawn different instances). The main bot (Architect) makes a copy, modifies it, and executes the program, voila: a new agent. He would never let the spawns get asa powerful as himself, because that would mean to loose power.
• Aug 18 2003 • 6:28PM
beza1e1 says:
Do you see the Architect and Smith as differnt, independent AIs?
Absolutely. "A singular consciousness that spawned an entire race of (independent and separate) machines (programs)."
It's also important to note that the "spawned" machines (intelligent programs programmed by an intelligent program) also spawned other machines. An obvious analogy would be equate God in Creation to the programmers of the original A.I. in The Matrix, and then to equate Adam (in Creation) to the Architect. Once created, Adam went on to populate the earth with mankind, much like the Architect populating the Matrix with other intelligent programs.
I see them like the bots today (IRC bot, Counterstrike bot, Eliza, ...). You can run one instance on your PC or you can run different copies
Sure. A key difference, however, is that the bots today aren't intelligent enough to make decisions independent of the programmer's intentions. Barring bugs of course. But a bug would be more of a programmer's error than his program's decision.
I like your programming perspective. Some of the coolest aspects of this movie fall into this area (Oracle, cookie, D-MAN, 101, Agent, Popper, etc.) Good stuff; on the money. Keep it going.
• Aug 18 2003 • 6:31PM
hmm , when morhpeus says to neo "you think its 1999 but blabla" that's the time when he's freed , so 1999 cant be the time AFTER he's done all the stuff in reloaded since that would be 6 months + post 1999 , right?
thought the phone scene theory is fucking awesome ;P
Btw where did u get the dates from the last scene in m1 ? Where did u see it?
• Aug 19 2003 • 2:03AM
NumerologyFan says on August 08, 2003 at 11:49:30 ET
And just the same about 6: in many numerology 6 is only induction , preparation for ... 7, the PERFECT number, the number of God, when God rejoices about all he just created.
...
Would this say about a Last One becaming? Would this mean that Neo is DYING and RESURRECTING again? or is he meant REALLY JUST TO 'AWAKE' the Last One? (are you thinking the same of me?)
HEY HEY, I said It! I told you the 7th would be who Neo freeds! The only one we know could be in that place is Kid!
I like that writer :-P
Just a more clue: I think it would be Kid the /th One BUT BUT BUT Still Neo the important One
...
About Seraph, and how he is yellow/gold rather than green."
Hey people, I think we forgot the hebrew/biblical background in this:
Seraph -> Seraphin
"The angels who burn with love by God, purify and illuminates to the mortals , the BARRIER (literally, the Gate keepers) for access to GOD(!), the nearest to Him" Here, they are represented in angeliology as made of FIRE, and LIGHT.
Thus, Seraph is not necessary of an older Matrix version, but in his(its?) own words " I protect that which matters most."
His being Gold is more like being "made of Fire". He is the Watch for the Oracle, a way of showing us more about the Oracle (Holy Ghost? Remember that in terminology, The only with access to Divinity is The Christian One- Jesus) Importance in tha scene.
Sorry if the definition isnt much clear but I am translating it from spanish, my language. In spanish is easier to relate Seraph with Seraphin).
• Aug 19 2003 • 2:31AM
Why do you need a 7th One? If Neo fulfills the prophecy and overwhelms the machines, so the humans are free. The 7th iteration would be the perfect world.
... hm i wonder now what could be a good end? The Matrix must survive, but the machines must be destroy, before Zion is. The most happy end, would be peace between human and machine, so they could work out the perfect Matrix together, which would save the machines power supply and the humans free will. But then the Architect must have to surrender.
• Aug 19 2003 • 2:45AM
About the possible playing-part of Neo and Kid, (im sorry but I got the theological interest) IF kind of xzaust.com theory is going true, lets say it would be like this:
1) Neo realizes Kid is the One to be One:-P
2) Neo or somebody(Morph again?) tries to convince him of his Responsability and Potentials (but still everybody doubts him).
3) Kid reaches some power and goes for the final fight (or something like that) to the (real?) Source scene.
4) Kid FAILS/DIES without doing nothing.
5) Neo Has to re-realize Himself is NOT the Final One Profecized BUT BUT BUT He Can/Has to be who end All this "Fate Crap".
6) He does what He is NOT Intended to do (and maybe rescues kid?).
7)??????
Think about it:
6 is the Man, 7 the perfect profecized. But the foreground message in all this is that mankind can be free of the system who rules all thir lives , i.e. "dont believe in that fate crap"; Kid, representation of Gods plans, should fail if the W's are showing us that agnostic theme, that Men can be free of God concerning/guide. So, Neo is Not intended to end all the Bondage, but just to allow other to do whatever-7th-is-needed-to-do.
B) Just like Adam (or maybe I must say, Lucifer?), Neo "rebels at the Divine plans" BUT NOW Neo is who WINS (satanical escathology?) the power/struggle to God. 7 can do nothing to avoid this (maybe even fights Neo!) .
C)Some the W's films are about men potentials, not men Fates, kindof "you can do it!".
D) If the 7th wins... all the film would be nothing to. Revolution to beginning. So sad. Interesting, but dark and sad. I got the blue pill in my tongue since now.
...
I REALLY REALLY NEED TO REST.
As Socrates said "I know nothing at all except that I am losing it". XD
• Aug 19 2003 • 8:39AM
sponboy says:The whole topic of Artificial Intelligence deals with the concept of a computer program that can think for itself, and make decisions beyond what it was originally programmed to make.
i don't dispute that, but what im suggesting is that smith is operating within set parameters. obviousley smith will move beyound is basic proramming being an A.I. and all, though what if his development is set in order to fullfill specific directives he is unaware of. I refering to smiths make-up charactor setting etc...
• Aug 19 2003 • 8:44AM
Is it just a coincedence that you stopped at number 7?
I think i understand your logic, NumerologyFan, but i am not sure wether the W's are that hard behind this special symbolism and i can't believe the Kid has such a great role. Apart from this, i can't deny your theory has some substance.
• Aug 19 2003 • 9:08AM
Thus, Seraph is not necessary of an older Matrix version, but in his(its?) own words " I protect that which matters most."
i believe that seraph is protecting the matrix and not the oracle, i think that is what he means when he says "i protect that what is most important"
sajiman, the date comes up just after the emp blast scene...
numerologyfan says:So, Neo is Not intended to end all the Bondage, but just to allow other to do whatever-7th-is-needed-to-do.
i starting to think that it is all about the 7th itteration, and peace between man/machine.
i also think that there could be different factions
1).man
2).oracle, seraph
3).merv and his vampire posse
4).architect and machine(sentinals) agents?
5) smith and smith and smith and smith 10^ etc...
the question is who is on who's side? is the architect actually helping neo by showing trin in danger and allowing a different outcome. as the architect could have just directed neo to the other door for an infinite amount of iterations. but he has decided to change the outcome, why?
1).to get 100% acceptance
2).understand human condition
3).to help free man
4).because he is late for a captain birdseye comercial
im starting to think that many of us are looking to deeply into this, myself included. though taking nthing away from the w's, i think the xzaust. theory will not neccesarily be true, but it will be on them lines me suspects...
• Aug 19 2003 • 9:13AM
gathering as much information as you can does not neccessarily lead you to the truth, it is when you empty your mind that the truth presents itself.
• Aug 19 2003 • 10:35AM
That is really a problem here. Here is a huge amount of
information gathered, but lineing it up in a thread is one of the worst ways to present it. A mindmap would probably do the job best, butwho would want to do this? Surfing, talking and thinking a little is much easier ;)
• Aug 19 2003 • 10:39AM
a possible reason Seraph had golden code is that he came from the first incarnation of the matrix or an earlier incarnation as we all know.if it was the first incarbation ir could be deemed as heaven. "Seraph" is singular for the plural "seraphim" as numerology fan mentioned. The seraphim are the highest choir of angels and included amongst others: Lucifer, Gabriele, Raziel and Malaciah, and they sit on the 8th level of Heaven just one below God.
Catholic encyclopedia states: The name, a Hebrew masculine plural form, designates a special class of heavenly attendants of Yahweh's court. In Holy Writ these angelic beings are distinctly mentioned only in Isaias's description of his call to the prophetical office (Isa., vi, 2 sqq.). In a vision of deep spiritual import, granted him in the Temple, Isaias beheld the invisible realities symbolized by the outward forms of Yahweh's dwelling place, of its altar, its ministers, etc. While he stood gazing before the priest's court, there arose before him an august vision of Yahweh sitting on the throne of His glory. On each side of the throne stood mysterious guardians, each supplied with six wings: two to bear them up, two veiling their faces, and two covering their feet, now naked, as became priestly service in the presence of the Almighty. His highest servants, they were there to minister to Him and proclaim His glory, each calling to the other: "Holy, holy, holy, Yahweh of hosts; all the earth is full of His glory." These were seraphim, one of which flew towards Isaias bearing a live coal which he had taken from the altar, and with which he touched and purified the Prophet's lips, that henceforth these might be consecrated to the utterances of inspiration…
Text continued…http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13725b.htm
• Aug 19 2003 • 10:51AM
beza1e1 says:
That is really a problem here. Here is a huge amount of
information gathered, but lineing it up in a thread is one of the worst ways to present it. A mindmap would probably do the job best, butwho would want to do this? Surfing, talking and thinking a little is much easier ;)
who would have the time? im sure siddarta would be up for it, though he has'nt posted for a while :)
i think the problem is some theories (which are still good) take us down blind alley's, and in turn we often (well myself i suppose) end up contradicting ones self...
• Aug 19 2003 • 11:01AM
i suppose seraph code is different as he is in essence a guardian, higher order within the matrix. perhaps, though there is no evidence to back this up as yet; there are class structures in place for the programs within the matrix and each class/level have designated colours of identification.
• Aug 19 2003 • 11:24AM
...i read an article in one of the broadsheets the other day, that scientist had devised a way of powering your home, using human biolelectricity. the article stated that humans emit around about 100 watts of energy at any one time.
...and also there was a recent artical which stated that 1000 neurons once belonging to a rat were placed in a petri dish, then hooked up to a computer/robotic arm, via the internet 19 kilometers away. these stimulated neurons were able to draw pictures, or should i say they were taught to draw picture's
has the world gone mad?????? there seems to be a very blurred line between science fact and science fiction. Technology is moving faster than our comprehension of it.
• Aug 19 2003 • 12:01PM
What is this about human bioelectricity. I thought it is impossible due to the laws of energy?
I once read it takes about 20 Years until a new development (steam power, electricity, computers, handy, ...) is taken into (commercial) use. So we have 20 Years until the machines overwhelm us ;)
• Aug 19 2003 • 12:13PM
beza1e1 says:
What is this about human bioelectricity. I thought it is impossible due to the laws of energy?
im not well versed in the laws of energy, though no doubt ill read up. im just repeating what the article stated. ill have to look it up in the archives, and i will copy and paste it onto the thread.
• Aug 19 2003 • 9:36PM
It's possible that Seraph was SHOWN to us as gold code, but that all indy programs might also be gold code (helping to lead Neo to put two and two together and ask the Oracle if she was a program), and that we're just supposed to make the connection based on the one example. Is there another example of gold code anywhere in the movie? I know no other person/program is shown...but any structures or anything? Gold might just be to show that they're not directly influenced by the Matrix...hmmmmmmm...but Trinity is green, so who knows...
• Aug 20 2003 • 12:06AM
Just to end with Seraph:
Think so a good fighter a single program should be to "keep busy" and almost hit The One. You see, the more powerfull agent (Smith) isnt match for Neo, whenever smiths come to help. It were needed 102 (count them if you dont agree! ;D XDD) to overcome him, and just because he (I guess) didnt want to destroy them all, just as he did with original smith.
How could a programmer (artificial or not, spawner or coder) create so a good protector, in fact without using the Matrix Agents as model...
.....
beza1e1 says:
That is really a problem here. Here is a huge amount of
information gathered, but lineing it up in a thread is one of the worst ways to present it. A mindmap would probably do the job best, butwho would want to do this? Surfing, talking and thinking a little is much easier ;)
Hey I propose a resumé about some points here discussed. I am just posting a page for us to do that... well I will say it when it is functional :-P
• Aug 20 2003 • 1:16AM
you can get the revolutions trailer now at
http://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com/
rv_cmp/revolutions1_downloads.html
77 days
• Aug 20 2003 • 4:06AM
RYUUYR just look above (your browser may have search function)
Golden Code is The womans orgasm at the Merv, Trinitys blood, ...
Wow NumerologyFan, i can't await it :D
Who knows if Neo uses his full power in the fight with Seraph? I think he could still puzzle around, why this guy attacks him and who he is and distraction does not help your fighting skills ;)
Seraph last words are "I protect what matters most" What matters most? The symbiosis between man and machine? The Oracle? The quest of the One? The truth about the Matrix?
In the trailer he fights together with Trin and Morph, so he doesn't protect the Oracle anymore. The truth? Why should he fight for the truth together with them?
So the quest and the symbiosis is left. If Neo has failed somewhere Seraph perhaps must interfere to help him out, this would explain, why he helps them fight.
I got the symbiosis point from xzaust. If the Oracle and Seraph are a third party with different aims, who just want to use the One? Her powers may still be valid, but she wants to establish a peaceful symbiosis between man and machine, rather than to extinct Zion or free all people.
• Aug 20 2003 • 4:45AM
What about a Wiki to present our informations? I programmed a simple one, but i wouldn't want to use my webspace, because there are already some projects and i don't have the money to expand it :(
If somebody has or knows some webspace with PHP support, i could give my Wiki. I already look for a WikiFarm, but i don't like Seedwiki.
More info about Wikis on my TipiWiki
Is this advertising? No, my Wiki is nowhere as featurerich as others and i couldn't get anything, if we use it. I just think it would be a good idea.
• Aug 20 2003 • 7:43AM
here are the time index's that the matrix show in m1...
start of m1:
Call trans opt: received. 2-19-98 13:24:18 Rec:Log>
End of m1:
Call trans opt: received. 9-18-99 14:32:21 Rec:Log>
WARNING:CARRIER ANOMALY
so there are 19 months between the both time index's, i find this interesting, as to me i dont believe the duration of m1 is more than 1 month. look at neo's hair growth for instance, when he is freed from the pod he has no hair at all, then by the end of the film after the emp blast his hair has grown 1 month's growth at max. (i know as ive be shaving my hair for about 10 years). so are we to assume that the time between trin speaking to cypher in the first scene and neo being freed is 18 months in duration? i dont think so!
the only logical explanation is that either...
1). 18 months between the emp blast at the end of the film and the phone box scene...
2). that the phone box scene takes place after revolutions...
also if i remember, there is a 6 month gap between m1 and m2...so taking that into consideration...18 moths could encompass the entire trilogy...
opinions anybody?
• Aug 20 2003 • 7:48AM
Carolyn says:
you can get the revolutions trailer now at
cheers Carolyn, are you single! :)
• Aug 20 2003 • 7:59AM
numerology fan says: How could a programmer (artificial or not, spawner or coder) create so a good protector, in fact without using the Matrix Agents as model...
it is possible that in the 1st version of the matrix, there may not have been agents at all, and perhaps programs such as seraph and merv and the oracle were the guardians. if the first version was set say a thousand years ago, those in the matrix would turn to an oracle for advise and guidence, as they did in greece and egypt etc. Merv and his vampire posse may have also policed the matrix also at some point, using superstition and the supernatural as scare tactics to keep order. (as we know those in the matrix rejected these earlier iterations, thats why merv, seraph etc should have returned to the source for deletion). but before they were deemed obsolete we should perhaps lok at what possible roles they had in earlier iterations...
• Aug 20 2003 • 8:14AM
i said: 18 moths could encompass the entire trilogy... months not moths, i should realy use the spell check more often :)
• Aug 20 2003 • 8:38AM
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/forum/showthread.php?s=c0e95ce69d49a5e381eba3b95c207644&threadid=262606
check out new pic, think there is gonna be a lot of bullet time rain in the final battle, this sequence is gonna be good...
• Aug 20 2003 • 9:22AM
http://www.christiandrouinplante.com/3/3.jpg evidence of the three power lines mentioned in the xzaust. theory.
• Aug 20 2003 • 9:27AM
It doesn't look as if he is standing in rain. Perhaps this some water fall or something? His shoulders ar dirty. After a fight?
The phone-theory seems realistic, lets hope it isn't a failure and 98 should have been 99. Morpheus talk is "You think it is 1999", so perhaps it is an error.
• Aug 20 2003 • 9:43AM
Architect states: Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the Matrix
Keymaker states: Exactly 314 seconds..
im no mathematician but both of the above statements are refering to pi i think?
Archimedes was one of the first people to calculate pi by mathematical methods, when he worked it out to be between 3.1408 and 3.1429.
is pi used as a means of testing for bugs in computers? is neo pi?
im sure ive seen the pi symbol somewhere (graphitti) in m1 or m2 or both, will have to check...
anyone?
• Aug 20 2003 • 10:33AM
Calculating PI is a nice, little routine, but using it as a test routine is uncommon i think. Must be something else ... pi is used in connection with circles ... Neo must conclude the perfect circle ... bah it is very wild thinking
• Aug 20 2003 • 10:52AM
pi is used to find the circumferance of circle's, but im sure it is used to detect bugs in software/hardware, i may be wrong...spoonboy will know im sure.
• Aug 20 2003 • 11:25AM
ive seen the enter the matrix trailer and the superbowl trailer, but im yet to see the reloaded end credits trailer of revolutions. could some one post the web page in which show this trailer. thankyou, and much appreciated...
• Aug 20 2003 • 1:51PM
Re: pi
Martin Gardner's fictional "Doctor Matrix" used to say that,
properly interpreted, the number pi (the ratio of the circumference
of a circle to its diameter, whose decimal expansion begins
3.14159265358979323846...) contains the entire history of mankind.
There's a dude on the Net named Mike Keith who is the total number monger, and has published numerous bakeable articles and books on the subject of numbers. Pi would be one of them:
http://users.aol.com/s6sj7gt/picode.htm
btw, trip out on the reference to both "Matrix" and "Cipher" in the above article on The Pi Code.
If you a math/word enthusiast and feel like going off on a tangent or two, you should check out Mike's home page for a look @ some of his work. He's written on various mathematical and word play topics; everything from anagrams, palindromes, musical math, pi, chess, 666, etc.:
http://users.aol.com/s6sj7gt/mikehome.htm
This is the guy you want next to you next time you find yourself standing in a long line for Pirates of the Caribbean @ Disneyland. Great stuff. A conversation with no end.
For additional insight on the amazing topic of Pi, check out the movie called "Pi":
http://www.pithemovie.com
For those who enjoy analyzing the Matrix, you'll find Pi right up your alley.
I don't know if Mike Keith has seen The Matrix, but if he has, it'd be pure entertainment to read his observations.
• Aug 20 2003 • 4:08PM
Bez, I think it is the rain in the pic. It was mentioned that the rain drops are huge because at that point in the film the matrix is falling apart (degradating).
• Aug 20 2003 • 6:16PM
"Have a cookie. You'll feel right as rain."
--The Oracle
• Aug 20 2003 • 11:43PM
I may be mistaken, but isn't the cake @ the Merv's place just a really concentrated green colour? I thought that myself and have seen others post the same observation. I have been known to be colour blind though...hehehehe. Come to think of it, we don't always see 'code' through Neo's eyes either...perhaps the architect sees all as green, but Neo can see the difference...blah blah blah...
• Aug 20 2003 • 11:56PM
bez, sorry for the expectations, I dont think I could do the page for a while (reentering school and still not enuff webskills ;-P ).
My idea was basically a page where it can be shown how the three basical theories here developed (MwM, nMwM and recently PhoneScene) explains itself and excludes(or includes) others; even, it can be shown its particular viewpoints for the M1 and M2 scenes. Kind of a trial. Something like this:
What says MWM:,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
What says Not-MwM:dddddddd
What says PhoneScene:dddddddd
M1
1) The Struggle for Trinity :-P
MwM says: yada yada yada
Not-MwM says: yada2 yada2
Phone scene says : Ring Ring Ring
2) Wake up, Neo
MwM says: yada yada yada
Not-MwM says: yada2 yada2
Phone scene says : Ring Ring Ring
...
...
Animatrix
Bi66er:
MwM says: yada yada yada
Not-MwM says: yada2 yada2
Phone scene says : Ring Ring Ring
Kids Story:
MwM says: yada yada yada
Not-MwM says: yada2 yada2
Phone scene says : Ring Ring Ring
...
...
M2
Trailer:
MwM says: yada yada yada
Not-MwM says: yada2 yada2
Phone scene says : Ring Ring Ring
0) Presentation: Code-made machines diggingMwM says: yada yada yada
Not-MwM says: yada2 yada2
Phone scene says : Ring Ring Ring
1) Reunion of capitans
...
got the idea?
Something like that...
• Aug 21 2003 • 3:44AM
The Phone scene is acceptable for both theories i'd say ...
@ ctm3: sorry, i haven't seen the new trailer yet. I must wait until i get home from work.
@ RYUUYR: Its not the cake, which is golden, it is the reactions within her. Like the blood in Trinity. The orgasm/explosion is golden.
• Aug 21 2003 • 10:05AM
beza1e1: I should have been more specific, from my memory, although I've only seen it thrice, and from posts on other sites, it's any part of the scenes with trinity and the cake/girl/orgasm that is just ultra concentrated green. I can see it approaching a yellow-ish colour, but I just can't remember seeing it the same way that Seraph is depicted. *sigh* I guess I'll just have to go see the movie again...what a TOUGH decision that was...although I had already made the decision, I was just trying to understand it...8^)
• Aug 21 2003 • 11:30AM
I have taken the time to read every post in this thread (not the old one, sorry) and have seen some questions pop up that I feel I can help lay to rest...or at least put a new spin on. Here goes nothing...long post follows (POSSIBLE SPOILERS FROM THE GAME ENTER THE MATRIX - sorry)
ON THE SUBJECT OF LINK KNOWING ABOUT SUPERMAN
Yeah, well get this...in the game, "Enter the Matrix" the navigator of the Logos is trying to convince Niobi and Ghost not to go back in to the Matrix and he says...and I quote (from memory), "You guys have a serious death wish. A full on Bronson!" which is a direct reference not only to the "Death Wish" series of movies, but to the star of those movies, Charles Bronson. Granted, it's never said whether he is supposed to be "home grown" or not, but I think the point being made here is that rebels are aware of the fads and trends of life in the Matrix. This is either by having access to the Matrix code or by having access to those who do.
ON THE SUBJECT OF NEO & TRINITY'S RESURRECTIONS
Neo came back to life because he is The One. He had to "Die" in order to come back and be The One (Oracle says this in M1). In M1, when he comes back (view in the Neb), you see his body convulse in the same manner as someone who is brought back with a defibrulator (spelling?). His "One" powers did this automaticly when Trinity admitted her lover for him and kissed him (trigger).
Trinity on the other hand was brought back by Neo in M2. He did it through the Matrix. Remember what Morpheus said about damge taken in the Matrix? It only makes sense that if Neo was able to remove the bullet from her body (there is no bullet) and restart her heart in the Matrix, that it would also cause her body in the "real" world to react. This follows the same logic as the "The One Code" bringing Neo back in M1 at the onset of the trigger (Trinity-see above).
ON THE SUBJECT OF SQUIDDIES
We saw the sqiddies go down at the end of M2. We know they were damaged/disabled/destroyed. We know the Hammer didn't use it's EMP to do it. If you remember in M1, the Neb had to power down - fire EMP - and wait a few seconds before powering back up...yet the Hammer flies in to save Neo&co almost immediately after the sqiddies go down. It also cannot be the Logos because, according to the game Enter the Matrix, Niobi and Ghost had to use their EMP in an emergency which left them stranded in uncharted underground tunnels. If it had been the Logos' EMP that downed the squiddies, then Neo&co or the crew of the Hammer would surely have gotten a reading on their location and/or seen them go down (EMPs have a relativley small field of effect). Also, if a true EMP had been used at all, then the Hammer probably would have been close enough to be damaged/disabled as well. This leaves the cause for the squiddies downfall squarely with Neo.
So how did the squiddies go down? Here's a list of possible answers:
1)Neo stopped them because he realizes they are still in the Matrix.
2)Neo stopped them with his true "real world" powers.
3)The Architect stopped them because they would have killed The One.
4)They short circuited due to safety protocols concerning The One (again, the Architect)
(can't think of any more...for now this will have to do)
All of these answers are good...unless you take into account the fact that Neo collapsed immediately upon the squiddies fall. And this was no, "Gee I'm tired from stopping those squiddies" kind of fall. Neo collapsed in the EXACT same manner as fallen rebels do when they are still "jacked in" to the Matrix. In the real world, they are unplugged or dead, but in the Matrix they have a distinct way of simply falling on themselves...so to speak. Also, it is interesting to point out that during the moment Neo stops the squiddies we get to see his face for a split second. He does NOT look like he does when stopping a bullet or cloud of bullets. He looks like he is working hard!
ON THE MwM THEORY
I agree. The question in my mind is, "To what point are there multiple Matrices?" Is it simply a trap he is caught in by the Architect? The Architect could have trapped Neo when he chose his path in the Architect's chamber. A matrix only for Neo, where he could be controlled further to the Architect's ends. Or, is all of the "real" world (including Z10N) another network within the Matrix? Both have a logical truth behind them. They could BOTH be true. You can have as many netwoks as you want within the "sphere" of the original. For security, this would make total sense.
PREDICTIONS
1) Smith is much more important to this story than I see him being given credit. I believe he may be much closer to the source than expected.
2) I believe that the MwM theory is correct, though I do not know to what degree. I will not be "let down" if this is the case. The W's will surely do it right.
3) I hate to say this, but I think the Oracle will be killed/cloned at the hands of Smith. Who is Seraph protecting ,"That which matters most" FROM? Why has the Oracle been moving around? Hiding from who? Merv? Bah! She was doing fine in that apartment...Merv never touched her there. And they just happen to get the hell out of the playground just before Smith arrives. In the trailer for M3, you can clearly see that "crazy Smith" is getting his giggle on in the Oracle's now well lit apartment. Just think about it.
4) Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Anakin Skywalker show up and they all have punch and pie, then kick some motherboard!
Sorry such a long post. I hope it's easy to read and follow. Peace.
• Aug 21 2003 • 12:47PM
Good conclusions Tazmaster
Concering the squiddies: 5) Neo uses some kind of WiFi jack in. This would be my most favoured solution, but i want the W's to give a very good explanation, if it prooves right.
1) why his working hard face expression?
2) lame story, not Matrix-style
3) deus-ex-machina effect, but i could settle with it
4) then what is the point of showing Neo in "stopping pose"?
And why should the architect access the squiddies? Could be Neo in solution 5) or th Oracle, Seraph (I protect what matters most) ... well, even Smith could have done it, he wants to face is arch enemy
• Aug 21 2003 • 1:46PM
Also, in "Enter the Matrix" *****SPOILERS*****the Oracle (new actress) tells Niobi that Neo is in a place between this world (Matrix) and the real world. This places Neo either in the Architect's chamber...or wherever he is at the end of M2. Personaly, I believe the Oracle is refering to Neo at the end of M2. This places everything that happens in the game from that point on AFTER Neo's collapse (she fights a bunch of Smiths, escapes, and then pilots the Logos away from one of the Bomb squiddies while Ghost shoots it. Then they use the EMP to disable the remaining squiddies and crash) This definately rules the Logos' EMP out in regards to the "squiddie incident" at the end of M2. Anyway, in order for there to be an "inbetween" (buffer of some kind?) there has to be a connection. Neo was NOT "jacked in". Yet, there had to be a connection between the two worlds in order for Neo to get trapped inbetween them after zapping the squiddies. Networks within Networks.
• Aug 21 2003 • 2:00PM
Oh, one more thing. Lol. I remember someone asking how Popper (Kid's Story) got out of the farm after freeing his own mind. Well, in "Kid's Story", at the end, he wakes up on the same table Neo did. He is in the Neb. Neo&co were watching him. They had just called him on his cell phone to let him know he needed to get out of the school because the agents were onto him. When they saw he had "self substantited" from the Matrix...they went to the farm and got him same as they would have had they given him the red pill. But, I wonder how Neo&co found his body amongst all the thousands and thousands of people in the farm? The pit he would have flush into would have to have been one of hundreds because that field was so huge! Remember that in M1 ,when Neo took the red pill, Morpheus was urgent about them "homing in" on him so they would be able to find him.
• Aug 21 2003 • 2:35PM
I now set up a Wiki to collect all the different informations. It is available at
http://andi.dasstellenwirinsinternet.de/matrix/
I have not yet inserted anything and i will probably change the "theme" a little, but if you want, don't hesitate to edit it
• Aug 21 2003 • 2:48PM
I'm still wondering about the earpiece and if its only shown to mean that Smith was disconnected and somewhat freewilled. Maybe its a new apple WiFi device that Smith invites Neo to connect with so they can have tupperware parties in their own relm.
• Aug 21 2003 • 3:40PM
I got a nice idea from the imdb board for the Matrix. It supports the mwm theorie, but why not ;)
You have seen Matriculated? There they put a machine into a Matrix and convinced it, that humans are good. Perhaps the whole story is the same?
Zion is within the Matrix the surviving Humans have built to convince machines. The machines they want to convince are the Ones ... uh i lost my path ... if everything is just a convince simulation, it would explain why the One has to go to the source on his free will. If he does, his training is complete. I can't think any further currently, I showed you the door, now you must go through ;)
*walks away, confused*
• Aug 21 2003 • 4:23PM
beza1e1 says:
You have seen Matriculated? There they put a machine into a Matrix and convinced it, that humans are good. Perhaps the whole story is the same?
It's actually a software program imprisoned in a human's dream. But yes, it's the same concept in reverse. Pretty cool, eh?
• Aug 21 2003 • 4:43PM
To disagree with the MwM, I agree with beza1e1 about Neo being able to connect to the Matrix from without, and then accessing the squiddies the same way Smith or one of the other agents did in M1. This assumes that Neo, when IN the matrix himself, could actually manipulate the machines in the real world the same way as agents can. This then demands that Smith and Neo are connected in some way now perhaps also, in the real world, which I know has been said many times. I have to ponder how this connection with Smith/Neo would allow him this access, but it could make sense with Oracle's comments from EtM about Neo's being caught somewhere between.
I believe the point of showing Neo in his 'stopping' pose is to give us a nice cinematic shot...hehehehe, why not? His struggling facial expression could be simply due to his accessing something he's never done before, so perhaps he's just figuring it out really fast and it's painful to him.
I wouldn't be dissappointed with a MwM story, I'll say that now, but it better be a DAMN good one if so. All the theories that I've read here supporting MwM are all great, but seem to stretch things a bit too far, where simplicity might suffice. (although some of my own theories necessitate suspending certain beliefs also...hehehe). Based on some clips from the Revolutions trailer, it doesn't really look like anything in the 'real' world, ie- Z10N, underground tunnels, squiddies, etc, seems to be degrading the way the 'inside the matrix' scenes look. Now, this isn't absolute of course, we see lots of stuff pretty fast, but when Neo and Smith fight, it sure looks like the Matrix is falling apart, but then why isn't the 'other matrix' of the 'real world'??? Again, that's not conclusive since perhaps they just don't show us...*sigh*
• Aug 21 2003 • 4:54PM
Spoonboy says:
beza1e1 says:
You have seen Matriculated? There they put a machine into a Matrix and convinced it, that humans are good. Perhaps the whole story is the same?
It's actually a software program imprisoned in a human's dream. But yes, it's the same concept in reverse. Pretty cool, eh?
I love how spoonboy is SO convinced...hehehehe...
• Aug 21 2003 • 7:53PM
beza1e1 says:
...and convinced it, that humans are good...
RYUUYR says:
I love how spoonboy is SO convinced...
Convinced that humans are good? Maybe anomalistically. But by default? Not yet; still waiting for proof. :)
• Aug 21 2003 • 8:46PM
No, convinced of the MwM, which you helped to pioneer, at least on this board...you have laid out a very detailed view that you have about what's going to be revealed, that's all I meant since you stated in the above post about matriculated being a software program inside a human dream...hehehe.
• Aug 22 2003 • 5:17AM
I heard about MatrixOnline, the multiplayer game after revolutions, that you can meet the oracle there. This means two things
- the matrix won't be destroyed in revolutions
- the oracle is not overwritten by smith or she survives it
• Aug 22 2003 • 5:45AM
I don't know if others have mentioned this already, but the Architect scene immediately reminded me of The Prisoner, in which the rebellious Number 6 ("I am not a number.. I'm a free man!") clashes with authority figure Number 2 (often sitting in a chair in his control room) and tries to find out why he's trapped in The Village, and who Number 1 is.
• Aug 22 2003 • 8:01AM
To disagree with the MwM, I agree with beza1e1 about Neo being able to connect to the Matrix from without, and then accessing the squiddies the same way Smith or one of the other agents did in M1
if neo is connected to the matrix for arguments sake, how is accessing the squiddies, as surely if the squiddies are in the real world why would they be connected to the matrix? the squiddies are A.I. and will have independent power/programming etc. and unlikely to be connected to the matrix/grid etc.
'inside the matrix' scenes look. Now, this isn't absolute of course, we see lots of stuff pretty fast, but when Neo and Smith fight, it sure looks like the Matrix is falling apart, but then why isn't the 'other matrix' of the 'real world'??? Again, that's not conclusive since perhaps they just don't show us...*sigh*
it sure looks like zion is falling apart to me (MwM), obviously when the matrix is falling apart the laws change/collapse within the system, we see degredation (walls crumbling, whatever). perhaps within zion this degredation is represented as a war between the sentinals and the human/A.I. ...as i think we have established this war always happens when the anomoly as he/she did in the previous 5 iteration's has approached the source. the war in zion is a result of the matrix degrading. so if zion is in the matrix (which it is!) this war is the degredation.
ill go back to a very early question on this thread... where is the evidence in zion that 5 previous zions have existed, over god knows howmany years. and how could 250'000 people exist there as it would take 2000 years for that amount of people to be born etc (yes i know people have been freed from the matrix, but only a fraction of that figure 250'000 have been freed, the majority of zion inhabitants are zion bred)
• Aug 22 2003 • 8:13AM
there is no spoon...in m1 ...there is no spoon...in m2 ...there will be no spoon in m3 ...there is no real world, we certainly have'nt seen it yet!!!
• Aug 22 2003 • 8:53AM
new pic... http://www.rottentomatoes.com/forum/showthread.php?s=03c722c908b91cb2937858264a4b4758&threadid=263472
• Aug 22 2003 • 9:09AM
bell: I have already addressed Neo's connection in my earlier post, you only took part of the post and answered it, but my own answer was right after the part you cut. Hehehehe. As I said, it assumes that Neo has some sort of control...but we have seen the agents in contact with them in M1...also...where's your proof for the squiddies being AI that isn't connected? That's quite a leap. Oh wait, the squiddies can't be AI and not connected to the matrix grid, since as you say it's ALL the matrix. Isn't it fun to argue against yourself? We don't KNOW how long this matrix has existed, so it COULD have lasted 2000 years...why not? Also, you ask where proof is of the real world? Well, since anything in the movie COULD be an illusion, there's really no proof of ANYTHING at all, either MwM or anything else, since everything you claim as proof could be fake as well, yes? The fact that it's fake could mean that YES it's a MwM, but not the way you have stated, it could have led you to believe that just as easily as believing it was real. If you ask for proof, supply some also, since one shouldn't believe in something just because it's the opposite of something they don't believe. You have made many many many points above, but none of them any more with support of proof than any other good point. It's pretty convenient to say that z10n falling apart 'pysically' by being destroyed by squiddies represents the degradation of the matrix...what a grandstand that would be on the part of the matrix. If it's really degrading, I don't think it would be able to keep control of anything, isn't that what degrading means in a way? It doesn't make sense that it would be losing code, falling apart, etc, and still be able to run it's 'people fooling zi0n part of the matrix' all the while having it destroyed by functioning squiddies, who as you claim, are just another part of the matrix too. Wouldn't they start slowing down, physics get turned upside down, etc?
As for Neo controlling squiddies (non MwM point): If communication between the Matrix and the real world is possible, as we've seen, then we could say that the agents are simply sending some request/command to some central location for redistribution to wherever the squiddies get their orders, etc, etc. We could also say, based on footage, that squiddies act very well in unison (clips from revolutions). This could imply some sort of birdlike 'intuition', but it could also be some sort of override communication, where they all become 'one' unit temporarily, on and off, depending on necessity ( I hate making comparison's between different sci-fi, but sorta like the 'borg in ST, where they all have the buried potential of individuality, but are also connected and somewhat controlled by the group mind). I mean, we've seen them act independantly, but also in tight, focus'd groups (yes, yes, this could just be AI with super reflexes). If Neo could somehow 'wireless' connect to the matrix from the real world (some proof bell is the statements by the Oracle in Enter the Matrix about being between two worlds, perhaps the connection is still there, but he can't get back out and he's in some holding zone that never gets seen when you jack in normally cause you pass through it so instantaneously)...sorry, IF he could do that, then perhaps he could simply access this squiddie comm web like the agents do (once inside the matrix though), and simply give them some override command. I cannot believe that they are so truly independant that they can't be invaded like that. I mean, even the agents are connected, DESPITE their individuality. The fact that he's looking really agonized could be 'cause he has to do all this really fast, and for the first time, pretty much intuitively...but we all know how good Neo is at making it up as he goes along...
Sorry if I sounded accusatory BELL, 'twas not my intention...just ranting...hehehehe...8^)
• Aug 22 2003 • 9:50AM
I reecently read the chat with the W's and once again i feel sure, there is no MwM. I don't think the movie is that deeply thought. They said "So some of the stuff we do relates to the narrative, and some of the stuff we do because we like."
Oh another one, we puzzled about Call trans opt: received. 9-18-99 14:32:21 Rec:Log>
calla: What do the time 9:18 and the date 9/18 signify? Is this a personal reference?
WachowskiBros: That's my wife's birthday.
Perhaps, we are just lost in the Code, fellows ;)
• Aug 22 2003 • 10:02AM
if you want proof, read the 1000+ thread as we have covered these point's a zillion time's. and as a result little effort on my side admittedly has gone into backing up what ive stated, as ive already done so on this thread. i am a MwM advocate, though i do entertain the possibility i am wrong so in turn look at where other theories may lead :)
• Aug 22 2003 • 10:06AM
bezale1: you are write in stating that 9/18 is the w's birthday... but the point is the duration of time 19 months, between the time registers. i dont believe that m1 took place over 19 months...
• Aug 22 2003 • 10:12AM
i know the agent refer to the sentinal in m1, but that does not mean the matrix/ or neo can directly control them from the matrix. i would assume that the sentinals have a level of A.I. as to me in m1 the sentinal that approaches neo when he is coming out of the pod, demonstrates decision making of a kind...may very well be a lower level A.I. (this is assuming that zion is real of course, and if zion was real one would assume that all machines are A.I.!!!!!!).
• Aug 22 2003 • 10:27AM
Oh, I just watched the Matrix again on DVD and a few things...
It does NOT say Tank was wrong on the wall behind Neo in the scene where Neo meets Apoc, Switch and Trinity in the car for "bug removal".
It actualy says, "Bank was wrong". I am absolutely posative on this. It DOES, however, show the word ONE directly behind Neo. It is only visible for a second due to Neo's movements on screen.
I was full of crap about Neo convulsing as if he was defibrulated when he came back to life in M1. Simply didn't happen. All he did was breathe in deeply. I still hold to the core of my argument about the resurrections, though. Mainly that the events of it all (getting shot/kiss admition of love by Trinity) were a trigger that set off the One's programming (code) to bring him back.
Also, anyone besides me notice that Neo was much much more masculine in M1 than he is in M2. He's almost androgynous in M2 (well except for the sex scene, lol)
• Aug 22 2003 • 10:41AM
Neo is androgynous? I'd say Keanu Reeves should learn to play out a character ... but thats not the point ;)
The chat brought me somehow back to the ground. Matrix probably isn't the deeply thought. It is no science finally. Perhaps one of the W's got baby on 2-19-98? However, the show must go on :D
I agree, that the robots have an AI, but nevertheless communication is a good thing. What if the super-strategy-program figures out, there are 100 sentinels need on a specific place? Then it must tell those sentinels to go there. So they have to be able to recieve commands and why should Neo be able to fake or just diffuse this?
• Aug 22 2003 • 11:41AM
Thank you, although I said that, it seems someone had to say it again. Bell, as I've said before, I have read all the post above...none of them offer any more PROOF than I myself have offered for my own ideas. PROOF implies that someone says something absolutely concrete that applies to something that, through other methods, we can prove to be real also (or something like that)...based on your own arguement, and seeming not to believe what most of the people say in the movies (did you say that, or someone else), NOTHING can be proven. Anything ANYONE says could be the architect speaking through them, or their program being misleading, etc, etc...so that leaves us with this: If the MwM theory is true, then we cannot trust anything that has been said in the movies since the MwM relies on some statements being lies. How can we know which ones? We can pick and choose which ones to believe in order to make it fit our theories, but is that really good to do? It's FUN AS HELL, that's for sure...these discussions are top notch, but does it go anywhere to 'customize' the facts like that? I'm sure we could pretty much prove any weird theory we could think of if we just disregarded statements that didn't agree simply based on the fact that it could be a lie. I agree, people lie, progams if you like, lie, but we can't just assume that they are when there's nothing else to go on. The proof doesn't go backwards...ie- I believe that the MwM theory is correct, so therefore, any statement made by someone that doesn't work MUST be a lie. It can't work that way, shouldn't we assume that everyone is telling the truth (as far as they know it) and then throw away anything supurfluous that we thought was significant but isn't? 8^) The Second Ren Pt I and II, Smith's speech in M1, and various other references would all have to be totally false, fabrication, or whatever. I forget exactly how your view of MwM goes or how it differes from others bell, but it just seems like too much of an easy explanation for really just ONE weird point: Neo seemingly knocking out the squiddies at the end of M2. What else NEEEEEEDS to be explained by the MwM theory??? Many things CAN be explained that way, but also have numerous other ways. The only ways so far that I've seen discussed for Neo's action is either the MwM or this 'wireless' thing that beza1e1 said (which I think has won me over). I used to believe in the MwM thing too, mostly because of you Bell and Spoonboy's posts. Lately though, and pretty emphatically, I have gone 180° on it for the reasons stated above. Is there anything besides Neo's 'real world' abilities that really DEMANDS the MwM theory?
• Aug 22 2003 • 12:02PM
On Squiddies: Do we KNOW how they communicate/think/act??? No, so we cannot just assume that they are free thinking. I'm not assuming they're NOT, but I'm seeing activity that seems both independant AND universally controlled, so I just figure that there are ways for signals to override. I mean, even in M1 they say that Squiddies are PROGRAMMED to do only one thing; search and destroy. Does that sound like a truly independant AI??? No way.
I would also say that even though the Matrix itself wouldn't HAVE to have any connection to the main machine mind (we don't really know how they work, so my terms will be purposefully nebulous), it's possible that some sort of link exists between the Matrix and the rest of the machine world, or it would mean that the architect would have absolute power there. Wouldn't HE get orders somehow? Do the machines have a government? The machines in SR I&II certainly weren't like the squiddies or those runners from Matriculated, so we can surely assume that other changes have occurred.
• Aug 22 2003 • 12:13PM
Please don't just explain away that previous post by saying something like: it's all because they're in another matrix that they say or think those things. That's reverse engineering again to say that. It COULD be, but the only proof is the fact itself.
• Aug 22 2003 • 12:33PM
Matt Round says:
I don't know if others have mentioned this already, but the Architect scene immediately reminded me of The Prisoner, in which the rebellious Number 6 ("I am not a number.. I'm a free man!") clashes with authority figure Number 2 (often sitting in a chair in his control room) and tries to find out why he's trapped in The Village, and who Number 1 is.
As Neo runs through the old lady's apartment near the end of the film, we see an image on the TV of a menacing man in a black suit coat. The image is that of one of the Number 2's from the TV show "The Prisoner" (1967).
• Aug 22 2003 • 1:26PM
When the squiddies throw the bomb on the two ships, there are several squiddies and one bomb, so they have to figure out, which one throws the bomb. While doing this, they are intelligent enough to stay out of EMP range.
This shows for me, that they can communicate and are intelligent. Ok, needn't to be AI, because even my StarCraft game can put his units out of range. So they are either AIs or commanded by a central, which means either Neo could send them commands or can command them directly.
Is this nMwM enough for you? You should not offend our MwM people that hard. We are not here to win any discussion, but we could loose good contributors. I am not 100% nMwM, because it explains some things better then nMwM, i just follow my instinct.
btw: click on my name below :D
• Aug 22 2003 • 1:28PM
bell says:
ill go back to a very early question on this thread... where is the evidence in zion that 5 previous zions have existed, over god knows howmany years.
Step back for a moment and imagine yourself in the middle of a game of Pac-Man. Try to see things from the perspective of our favorite little yellow hungry friend. You're cruising around the corridors, munching dots, and dodging hostile furry ghosts named Inky, Blinky, Pinky, and Clyde. Now,
Where is the evidence that you have done this previously?
There isn't. You, Pac-Man, can only think as far back as the beginning of your current iteration (i.e., you can only remember as far back as the the beginning of the current game activated by the most recent token).
A similar analogy would be to consider the web browser that you're sitting in front of right now. Clear the cache, delete all your bookmarks, remove all your cookies, and restart your browser. Now, where is the evidence that your browser has been used previously?
Think of each iteration (revolution) of The Matrix as occuring in RAM, with every character (a program) runnng in RAM. When the machine reboots, everything in RAM is wiped out and all unsaved changes are lost. Upon reboot, the programs are launched from scratch and things start all over again. These programs really have no way of knowing about their previous iterations, although they can learn about them (from the Architect, Oracle, etc.) while running in the next iteration. However, everything they learn while running in RAM will be forgotten once the machine is rebooted again.
• Aug 22 2003 • 1:38PM
Spoon Boy: although that certainly sounds convincing, it's still based on the assumption that it's MwM, as stated above. I just can't believe how many lies would have to be told to support it. If things were a bit more ambiguous, then I would probably still be in the MwM camp...alas, I guess I'm just too trusting...hehehe...
Is this nMwM enough for you? You should not offend our MwM people that hard. We are not here to win any discussion, but we could loose good contributors. I hope you just got your pronouns mixed up...I am supporting your theory. Your statements about AI is a great way of saying what I said above, more concise, but then the next statement makes it sound like I'm disagreeing with you. I agree about not trying to win anything...I know I can come across like that when openly discussing ideas, but I try to throw in self-depracting remarks and 'hehehehe's to that no one takes me too seriously...but for all those who DID: SORRY....8^)
• Aug 22 2003 • 1:56PM
RRUYR says:
it's still based on the assumption that it's MwM
It seems the people in this thread have grouped these theories into one of two groups:
1. nMwM
2. MwM
These are inaccurate labels.
What we really need to do is get to the root of things (pun intended ;), and put people in one of the following two groups:
1. People who believe Zion is the real physical world, containing biological mankind.
2. People who believe Zion is not the real world, and is itself a non-physical reality.
Notice how MwM would be a subgroup of #2. Also notable is that there are Group 2 people, such as myself, who believe that Zion is not the real world, but do not necessarily fall under the MwM label specifically.
The MwM label is too specific; it literally suggests the "onion skin" model in which case one reality is "nested within" or "layered on top" of another reality. This onion skin model ultimately leads to a "top layer", in which case people must accept that there is a real world outside the realities portrayed in the film.
I don't see the need for an ultimate reality to ever be revealed to us in order for the story to retain its artistic value.
Like life, there are certain things that will always remain unclear, debatable, and eternally unproven. But this doesn't mean that life isn't worth pondering, for what it's worth.
The Matrix story, as a piece of art, is a representation of life and all the questions associated with it.
• Aug 22 2003 • 2:19PM
Spoonboy: I think the MwM theory has thrown out the idea of 'infinite' matices, at least for the most vocal proponents. The onion skin I guess could still describe a 'one matrix within ONE other matrix', but MwM doesn't have to be onion skin. They could exist overlapped, they could both be within each other, the smaller could be the observational boundries, like in Dr. Who's TARDIS, etc, etc. No absolutes as you say, so MwM doesn't HAVE to describe the onion skin idea...I do however agree that your other criteria is better. I just don't quite see the difference with what you said about Z10N not being real, but no MwM either. I know you had said some stuff WAAAAAY back about how time doesn't matter, and as just above, compared EVERYTHING to the workings of computers, is it something from those posts??? I don't mind the idea of there being no real world as we define it, as morpheus says in M1: "what is real, how do you define real?", but it would have to be more than just 'all this is going on in a computer' and we never see the real world. I think it could still be 'artistic', as you say, for that scenario, but I just wouldn't like it as much...it would be too much of an Occam's Meat Cleaver instead of Razor. I like simple ideas/explanations, that's why I liked your all encompassing view, but I'd like you to define it a little more after that last post...my noodle's been a little overdone lately...hehehehe.
"The movie as art theory"...hmmmmm...a new thread? lol I was just today trying to explain to a person the difference between music as art, and music as product, so I know what you mean about not needing a finality to it (or rather, a 'real world' finality). Perhaps David Lynch will remake the Matrix and then it will ALLLL make sense...8^)
• Aug 22 2003 • 2:47PM
it would have to be more than just 'all this is going on in a computer' and we never see the real world.
It would be more than that, if you looked closely. The A.I.-centered theory would not result in a cheap "whoah... dude... it's all a computer!" ending. That would be nothing more than using software as a means of achieving the almighty twist that we've grown to crave in movies these days; a twist that's been achieved using dreams (the oldest in the book), death (Sixth Sense, The Others), schizophrenia (Beautiful Mind, Fight Club, Identity), and deceit (Usual Suspects, The Game).
What the "all A.I. theory" really does is provoke profound questions about the idea of Artificial Intelligence. Rod Serling and his boys did this a few time in the Twilight Zone work, and Spielberg attempted to do this in his movie A.I. The underlying question that was asked in all these pieces of work were:
"If it were possible to create a totally intelligent machine, could it feel human emotion?"
The topic of what Artificial Intelligence is or isn't, and could be or couldn't be, is a deep subject. The idea of successfully creating a totally intelligent program or entity is about the closest thing to being God that we can imagine. Also notable is that mankind has not fully achieved this yet, and likely never will, so, like time-travel, it presents a wonderfully mind-tickling subject for science fiction.
Aside of plain old bad-ass artistic coolness, I find the A.I. theory to be more believable than the "biological man @ war with machine" concept which the nMwM camp finds so hard to let go of. My problem with the nMwM, or rather the "Biological Man Is Involved" theory, is the problems it creates, such as the cross-platform "Self Image" and the "Two Independent Yet Synchronized Timelines" between The Matrix and Zion. These topics were both discussed in depth in these threads.
• Aug 22 2003 • 3:55PM
Spoonboy: Thank you...there I have it in a nutshell, and now I remember why I agreed with you way back. I liked the idea of everything being a program/AI, and seeing what we can learn, etc, etc, tying in with the whole 'coppertop doesn't make sense' thing, which I agree, doesn't make sense. The only thing I would have to scratch my head over is that there would have to be a 'real world' SOMEWHERE. I have agreed already that it wouldn't have to enter into the movie, in fact, it would indeed take away from it since it would then just open up to many avenues and unfinished questions (ten sequels), and artistically it could be self-contained. Correct me if I'm mistaken, but it seems to me that you are saying that you didn't believe in a real world anywhere. How does THAT make sense??? It might tickle me a while if it were as you say, but that we never know the 'orchestrators' of this whole thing. I can imagine there being an explanation of WHY, but without seeing WHO, then what's the point? Even art has a point, (even Dada-ism had a point: SCREW ART!!!), so to paraphrase the Merov, we have the why, but without the who, it is pointless. If we were to take it further and say that there is no WHO at all, not just within the context of the movie, then it's back to: "wow man, there's a whole universe in the shavings of my fingernails..." since it would be what you hate: worlds withing worlds. Do you believe that there is a place where hardware machines exist and do anything? What created this scenario? The experiment in AI behaviour is great, but did you say waaay back that you thought it was humans experimenting with it? I forget...
As for 'believable', do you mean believable based on the clues in the movies, or believable 'as a movie ending'??? I mean, I agree, the Man Vs Machine thing is kinda overdone (but not done well enough for my liking) in other things. Even DUNE was based on that premise, although it didn't enter the book as such. It IS believable based on the movies though, as an answer to the questions. Just because that's what they say is happening, it doens't mean it IS, I know, but it doesn't mean it ISN'T either. That's why I was going on about lies earlier. I know that your theory can throw away the lies thing since it is all part of the 'experiment' or whatever, but again, it just seems like we were told everthing we were JUST to point us in the wrong direction. It's one thing to read between the lines, it's quite another to see things that just aren't there. I'll say this, as for 'believable', the man/machine thing is totally acceptable based on the movies...it's just not the most original. If we're meant to be witnesses to this AI experiment, then it's safe to assume it's centered on NEO, yes? So why show us, the witnesses, the interaction with Smith and Cypher? As a movie device, it's great, 'we know he's bad, but they don't...mwahahahaha'...but why bother showing us if it doesn't REALLY apply to NEO? One could say that it's tied in with his death and resurrection, since without Cypher's betrayal, it wouldn't have happened like that. But that could have easily been demonstrated without the scene with Smith in the restaurant. Just having him drop his phone in the garbage, just having him being the sneezer, just having him kill them at the end rant...all those accomplish the same thing, so why show us that scene in particular? I think that right there is a clue from the W's that the real world is essentially what they say it is. That still leaves plenty of room for twists on the man vs machine typical ending...it certainly won't be like the Terminator movies, that's for sure (I hope). Someone once suggested that the reason humans are used and not cows in the power plant (along with all the physics evidence) was that the humans were all like memory storage (I'm no computer 'term' guy, but you know what I mean). That we need to be essentially 'concious' on some level (are they really unconcious in the pods? then what happens when they actually dream in the matrix? Deeper unconciousness?), so no lobotomies either, for it to work. I like th
Bell • Jul 03 2003 • 12:41PM
1000 comments no probs 'come on people we are not out yet'
'1000 is within reach'
in about 100 years you'll have over 32,200
Thx for hashing that out. Any estimate on how many years it'd take to reach a population of 250k?
regarding how long zion exists for in each cycle and how long it would take for a population growth of 250k.Those figures are a complete fabrication. The architect states that each version of the matrix lasts the same amount of time as it takes from the emergence of one integral annomally to the next. Assuming neo is around 35 years old, there is your answer( 35 years 250k people born; not a chance), only those in zion believe that there are 250k people(the architect mentions no figures), as they are led to believe this. Maybe only a few are human in zion and the rest are programs, and perhaps many of them that are freed from the matrix are also programs; they are allowed to be freed in order to keep up the pretence that the zionists are actually achieving some thing and that they are gaining ground in the apparently none existant war with the machines. EVERY THING IS BY DESIGN, SYSTEMS OF CONTROL EXIST THROUGHT THE MATRIX AND ZION, IN ORDER FOR THE WHY? TO BE FULLFILLED, THE ARCHITECTS WHY IS MOST VALID.